Hibiscus & Gardenia: What Varieties Are Good For Bonsai?

[ShadyStump]

So, after a couple years now of mostly part time, haphazard experimentation on mostly collected trees, I finally find myself fully prepared (at least mentally) to start taking my bonsai journey seriously (or at least as seriously as I'M capable of taking a hobby).
YAY, ME FOR MOVING FORWARD IN LIFE!

And I've apparently become obsessed with gardenias and hibiscus. (I think I just want flowers around the house all year.) I'm on an EXTREMELY tight budget, which may practically negate many of your answers, but still I'd like to know if you don't mind. I have an unaccounted for and unpurposed $20 that I insist on putting toward my first tree I'm not ok with killing, and I feel it should be one of these flowers.

So what are your thoughts on how well either of these do as bonsai, and what varieties would you recommend?
I've come across examples of both, and they've been prevalent in local big box garden centers the past year or so, so I should be able to find some, though I'm certain they'll need special care in my semi-arid climate.
I've found multicolor hibiscus; I assume these are grafted so not so great a bet. I'm less familiar with gardenia varieties.

Thanks all!

 

[Yamabudoudanshi]

Gardenia jasminoides - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

^Incredibly popular in Japan, but we call them Kuchinashi. - Mostly shohin and mini size specimines around. I have no idea about the availability or survivability in your area.

What I've found: Pretty bulletproof to root work, defoiliation, and pruning. They survive outdoor winter temps in Tokyo just fine, which isn't saying much. One weak point is they seem to be a pest magnet here. I've had battles with aphid-like critters, and 100 baby caterpillars. It's entirely possible that's less of an issue where you live.

Additionally, their white flowers smell amazing. I've owned a basketball sized bush in a pot for a few years and 2 years ago, I got about 40-50 blooms. The smell was so strong it filled the house when the window was open. If you let the flowers fun their course, they produce little orange fruit that look like pinapples in the fall.

Inspiration here.

 

[ShadyStump]

Thank you!
I'll be reading up on these over the next few days. Here our winters get much too cold to leave gardenias outside, I know that much. They're sold for planters and brought in for winter. Our summers are very hot and dry, so mine would likely need some protection or special care then as well.

 

[penumbra]

I actually prefer the look over the smell of gardenia. As a youngster I remember walking up the church steps behind old ladies drenched in gardenia perfume and I found it rather nauseating. Fortunately the plants are not the same but I still think of that.
If you want flowers all year you might consider placing a few orchids amongst your other plants. I only have a half dozen that are blooming size but it seems there are always flowers, especially in the winter.

 

[ShadyStump]

I actually prefer the look over the smell of gardenia. As a youngster I remember walking up the church steps behind old ladies drenched in gardenia perfume and I found it rather nauseating. Fortunately the plants are not the same but I still think of that.
If you want flowers all year you might consider placing a few orchids amongst your other plants. I only have a half dozen that are blooming size but it seems there are always flowers, especially in the winter.

I find the gardenia foliage fascinating somehow. I agree, though, that the scent can become overwhelming at times.
Being my first attempt at flowering plants in tiny pots I suspect I'll inadvertently wind up trimming of half my flowering tips in spring and mitigate that handily. LoL

 

[penumbra]

I suspect I'll inadvertently wind up trimming of half my flowering tips in spring and mitigate that handily

My thought as well. I have thought about getting one too. Probably wait until the weather warms up though.

 

[Carol 83]

I have hibiscus and gardenias inside for the winter. The gardenias are full of flower buds and the hibiscus flower on and off. These are just garden plants brought inside. I do have a Shi Shi Gashira Camellia that is being trained as bonsai, I bought on the FB auctions. You should be able to find plenty of cheap hibiscus this spring/summer. Gardenias aren't as plentiful here but I found a couple at Lowes.

 

[ShadyStump]

I have a big north facing window in my living room where I'm keeping my less hardy trees with a supplemental grow light. All I need is a bigger table to put them on. LOL
But I've been wanting something to add some color to the house and the xeriscaped yard, and maybe something to cover up the smell of single dad with preteens and toddlers.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Alot of people DON'T realize that Gardenia IS that "Older Lady Perfume" smell...

It stands almost alone in scent's relation to memory, for me.

It's near Archetype.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Oh crap! forgot the POINT! (a common occurrence for me.)

Hibiscus, even though I LOVE growing them, seem harder to get... results from... Although I've seen some FAIRLY convincing Syriacuse (sp?).. Alot of the "REALLY COOL" Hibiscus.. SEEM not to reduce.. or respond THAT well to bonsai techniques... but I just love plants.. so it's ALWAYS a "win".

I am not too familiar with Gardenia.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

I would go for Hibiscus syriacus, Gardenias I dont like them that much xD

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I personally love gardenia. They are a little tricky as indoor plants. Or indoor for winter, outdoor with protection from dry wind in summer. Or in Colorado and harsh desert areas, indoors year round. They are a little tricky but well worth learning how to handle. Botanically gardenia are in the Rubiaceae, along with Ixora and Coffee. In terms of horticulture, they resemble Camellia or Azalea in terms of needing acid soil, even though Gardenia are not at all related to Azalea or Camellia.

I kept a gardenia going for about 25 years growing most of the time in kanuma, or kanuma and perlite or kanuma and pumice. I also used a pumice & fir bark mix. I also used Canadian peat, sifted over window screen to remove fines, mixed with perlite (or pumice) and some seedling orchid bark. That worked but needed repotting every 2 years because the peat would break down and collapse, loosing air space. Peat based soil mixes are a problem. Once moist, keep them moist. If they get dry they compact, loosing air voids. When you re-wet a peat based mix, they never quite expand to their original volume. Several cycles of dry out & re-wet and the peat based mix will be a compact mass without voids for air penetration. Peat based mixes are great if you can keep them moist enough that they never quite get dry enough to self compact. Peat with bark would hold an acid pH even if your water is fairly alkaline, but it is a mix that requires repotting every 2 to 3 years and careful watering to not let it get too dry.

When growing the gardenia in Kanuma I rarely needed to repot. Maybe once every 5 years, I think I let it go 8 or 9 years once.

I would winter it indoors, with my orchids. I found it summered better outside in part shade to nearly full, but open shade. Books say half day sun or more sun, but coming from indoors, it had to drop leaves to adjust to full sun, where if I set it in bright shade, it did not have to drop leaves and grow a new set.

Blooms would happen in flushes, usually twice, sometimes 3 times a year, late winter, again in summer and sometimes an autumn flush. The more you prune, the less flowers. I would only prune for "styling" once every 2 or 3 years, otherwise let it get bushy. That way you had more flowers.

I use a "Acid Plant Food", one that supplies the nitrogen as ammonium ion, and has an acidic pH. Or use fish emulsion, which supplies nitrogen as amino acids, a form that acid loving species can take up. Most plants listed as "acid loving plants" like azalea & blueberries have trouble absorbing nitrogen as nitrates. Some like blueberries can not absorb nitrates at all. For others the absorption of nitrogen from nitrates is a large metabolic cost. Most of the "common" garden fertilizers will provide their nitrogen as nitrate nitrogen. Acid loving plants prefer their nitrogen in the form of ammonium ion or as amino acids.

I think gardenia joined my collection before I understood the difference between different forms of nitrogen fertilizers, so gardenia are pretty forgiving. Key is to not over do it. Keep your fertilizer dilute, but relatively frequent, at least monthly. What ever the dose rate is written on the fertilizer package, cut that to one quarter, and that should be fine. As you get more familiar with bonsai fertilization, you can increase dose strength, but this is a "safe" starting point.

With bonsai we want relatively slow growth with smaller leaves and shorter internodes, so a lower fertilizer dose rate will accomplish that. Too high a dose rate will give elongated internodes, larger leaves and rapid growth. But with growth comes flowers. So key is to give enough to have constant moderate growth and a constant modest flush of flowers.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Some gardenia are hardy through zone 7 (think Memphis or Tokyo) Some of the "Tahitian gardenia" are zone 8. Where the gardenia are fully winter hardy outdoors and they really will do better grown outdoors. Many of your classic "Gardenia jasmoides" are zone 7. The others, are the ones that tend to be more warm blooded.

I'm in Zone 5b, Chicago-Milwaukee area, and last night's low was 4 F, which for the rest of the world is -16 C for the night time low, too cold for gardenia.

 

[Perrywinkle]

I am trying out some Hibiscus arnottianus and a yet unnamed Gardenia species from China I got from Woodlanders. The Hibiscus has pretty tropical, large Hibiscus leaves. However, the flowers are decently small (4-3 in) and in nature they grow to be large trees (30+ ft tall). In a couple of years I will let you know if the leaves reduce.

In zone 6a I think your best bet is finding a chunky yardadori Korean Hibiscus. Pretty much all other hibiscus and gardenia will need a greenhouse for winter.

 

[Katie0317]

@ShadyStump Do you see gardenia or hibiscus bushes where you live in peoples lawns? If not. it might be difficult to grow one as a bonsai. As much as I'd love to have a Japanese maple, stewartia and on and on they wouldn't do well where I live. Can't have everything.

If you do see those plants in your town, would you be satisfied buying a hibiscus or gardenia in a pot and having it as a houseplant in the winter and seeing if it stays alive? Might be a thought before investing in a bonsai tree...

Btw, around here I remember 'orange blossom' as the classic old lady perfume and it ruined me. They sold it in cheap containers at drug stores. Pretty gross. Love the smell of fresh gardenias though.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I think @ShadyStump is looking for an indoor for the winter sub-tropical flowering tree. He built that very nice shelf with the spot lights over it, over his kitchen counter specifically to display a tree. If it was to be an outdoor hardy, he is in zone 6a which would limit him to only Hibiscus syriacus as that is the only truly tree like and cold hardy hibiscus I know of that would survive a Colorado winter. I believe @ShadyStump is looking for something more sub-tropical. Hibiscus syriacus is a woody tree, though it is somewhat coarse in its branching, but it can be made into a bonsai with time. It will never be twiggy, the way an elm or maple can be. It is winter hardy through zone 5 possibly into zone 4b with some protection.

There are a couple of large flowered die back to the ground in winter hibiscus that really are unsuitable for bonsai. they do not develop secondary branching, just long primary branch from the ground, and the whole branch dies back to the ground the first hard freeze. Flowers are huge, brilliant colors, but not "bonsai-able". The "Cofederate rose" Hibiscus mutabilis is an invasive from China that is somewhat shrubby or woody, but is limited pretty much to the warmer southeastern "Confederate" states, zone 8, or so. The native North American swamp mallows all are die back to the ground perennials.

Hibiscus rosa-sinensis is the "other" tree like Hibiscus with long lived branching that makes a decent tree, though it is only hardy to zone 9 or so. Walter Pall has a nice example he has shared images of on BNut.

There are zero gardenia that are winter hardy to zone 6a.

 

[ShadyStump]

@ShadyStump Do you see gardenia or hibiscus bushes where you live in peoples lawns? If not. it might be difficult to grow one as a bonsai. As much as I'd love to have a Japanese maple, stewartia and on and on they wouldn't do well where I live. Can't have everything.

If you do see those plants in your town, would you be satisfied buying a hibiscus or gardenia in a pot and having it as a houseplant in the winter and seeing if it stays alive? Might be a thought before investing in a bonsai tree...

Btw, around here I remember 'orange blossom' as the classic old lady perfume and it ruined me. They sold it in cheap containers at drug stores. Pretty gross. Love the smell of fresh gardenias though.

I do understand and appreciate the concern, but...

I think @ShadyStump is looking for an indoor for the winter sub-tropical flowering tree. He built that very nice shelf with the spot lights over it, over his kitchen counter specifically to display a tree. If it was to be an outdoor hardy, he is in zone 6a which would limit him to only Hibiscus syriacus as that is the only truly tree like and cold hardy hibiscus I know of that would survive a Colorado winter. I believe @ShadyStump is looking for something more sub-tropical. Hibiscus syriacus is a woody tree, though it is somewhat coarse in its branching, but it can be made into a bonsai with time. It will never be twiggy, the way an elm or maple can be. It is winter hardy through zone 5 possibly into zone 4b with some protection.

There are a couple of large flowered die back to the ground in winter hibiscus that really are unsuitable for bonsai. they do not develop secondary branching, just long primary branch from the ground, and the whole branch dies back to the ground the first hard freeze. Flowers are huge, brilliant colors, but not "bonsai-able". The "Cofederate rose" Hibiscus mutabilis is an invasive from China that is somewhat shrubby or woody, but is limited pretty much to the warmer southeastern "Confederate" states, zone 8, or so. The native North American swamp mallows all are die back to the ground perennials.

Hibiscus rosa-sinensis is the "other" tree like Hibiscus with long lived branching that makes a decent tree, though it is only hardy to zone 9 or so. Walter Pall has a nice example he has shared images of on BNut.

There are zero gardenia that are winter hardy to zone 6a.

... he's dead on.
I know I can't keep either of these outside for winter. I have acquired over the past year several trees and plants that have to come inside for the winter, and so far they are all doing well, so I'm confident I can can keep gardenias and hibiscus alive with the appropriate learning curve.

I suppose my thinking with a subtropical flowering type is that it has a routine signal to tell me if I'm doing it right or wrong- namely those flowers.
It's built in guage of how happy the tree is, taking a little bit of the guess work out of it while allowing me to finally push myself and hone my skills.

So far it's sounding like hibiscus may not be my best bet for award winning bonsai, though it would still be fun. They're fairly new to the local market- at least I hadn't noticed them in the local garden centers before last spring- and I don't really know how they hold up to our climate.
Gardenias have been rather common as house plants for a long time here, but generally considered more of a specialty type. They don't like our winters or our summers much, once again forcing me to learn, and fast.

I am open to other suggestions, too, if anyone has any. These are just the two that have caught my eye for now.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

One of my very first "bonsai trees" was a slender little barely rooted cutting of a dwarf pomegranate. I was only 14 or 15 years old. I would walk past a florist on my way to piano lessons and he had odd little cuttings of various "houseplants" in the window. Got a Cattleya orchid seedling for $4 and a Pomegranate cutting for $2. This would have been 1969 or 1970, maybe. I kept the pomegranate alive for 42 years, until it got forgotten one autumn and froze to +10 F, about 10 degrees colder than you could ever expect any pomegranate to survive. Key is that Pomegranate are hardy trees, great indoor for winter, outdoor for summer. As long as during the summer they get near full sun, they will do quite well with this routine.

I leave my pomegranates out until a few light frosts knock the leaves off. Then depending on whether I owned a house at the time or not, they would come in to the windowsill, or go under lights, or finally would spend some time in my cold well house. The well house, usually ran 32 F to 40 F, but this would only keep the pomegranates dormant until maybe early February. Then even in the dark 38 F well house, the pomegranates would start to grow. I guess their winter requirement was met and it was time for spring. I would bring them up into the windowsill or the light garden with the orchids. Then in spring they would go outside for the summer. I would prune off all the "winter growth" because that would be a little soft and weak because of low inside light, then I would move the pomegranate to full sun, and a new set of usually brightly red tinted leaves would emerge, and the stage would be set for a nice round of summer growth. Branches that are allowed to grow all summer usually begin blooming by end of July. Flowers are great. Since my pomegranate was only 12 or so inches tall, I never allowed it to develop fruit to maturity. They are self fertile, so to get fruit you only need one. I like the dwarf cultivars because the fruit is smaller, leaves are smaller, and internodes are a bit shorter. They do like full sun, but other than that, they have no draw backs.

Oh, and pomegranates can "accidentally dry out" and will bounce back. You can dry them to wilt point, and they will bounce back without loosing twigs. You can dry them to wilt, forget them an additional day, and only loose a few small twigs. These are tough, drought resistant shrubs. Now drying them out to the wilt point is not healthy, does not encourage rapid growth, but the wilt point is the most obvious sign that most of us as beginners used to get to know when to water our bonsai. Pomegranate would survive over stepping the wilt point by a day or two. (if it is not exceptionally hot and dry). Pomegranate survive heat, and low humidity well. They just drink more water. They survive cold down to maybe 27 F without serious damage, and if the time is brief, they will tolerate a few hours down to +19 F. It is best to not let them get more than a few degrees of frost, just to let them know what time of year it is.

Pomegranates are good for all "upright" styles, in that branches like to grow upwards. As long as a branch finishes above the rim of the pot the tree is in, the pomegranate will be fine. Try to make a pomegranate cascade and all the downward branches will slowly die on you. Any slanting, twisting, contorting, windswept, upright, broom, informal upright, or just "whatever" style will work as long as the end of the branch finishes a little bit higher than the start of the branch. Bark of pomegranate is smooth and tan. Plan big chops for the back side. Wood is fairly soft, so deadwood features won't last more than a decade. Usually like most fruit trees, deadwood is only used if the pomegranate you are working with has a massive trunk.

If you know anyone in California, see if they can get you a stump of a larger old pomegranate from an old Inland Empire pomegranate orchard, there you would have something fun to work with.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

A picture from my tree's last summer, 2012, RIP

It never looked like much, because I made all the beginner mistakes possible on it. It always was in a bonsai pot, always in a grit based soil, so the trunk never developed much caliper. Believe me, when someone says, "once you put it in a pot the trunk won't thicken", they are telling you the truth. The trunk was barely one inch in diameter after 42 years in a bonsai pot. It needed to be in the ground EARLY in its life to develop a 3 or 4 inch diameter trunk. It never was, so it stayed skinny.

But I loved the flowers. It was an old friend. It went to college with me, it made every move I did. Oh well.

 

[Perrywinkle]

I suppose my thinking with a subtropical flowering type is that it has a routine signal to tell me if I'm doing it right or wrong- namely those flowers.
It's built in guage of how happy the tree is, taking a little bit of the guess work out of it while allowing me to finally push myself and hone my skills.

I think you will have to do some research on this one. Hibiscus is a large genus, and there has to be some species out there that meets the criteria you're looking for: small flowers, perennial/woody, and smallish leaves. Hibiscus species range from annuals to caudex succulents to large trees. If I were you I honestly would go to the wikipedia page for the genus Hibiscus and google search all the species listed lol.

If you don't care much about the scale of the flowers on your tree, honestly it's hard to beat rosa-sinensis and its hybrids for ease of culture. You literally just provide heat, light and fertilizer and lift off. And some of the flowers on hybrids are just stunning.



Charles Atiu, a hybridizer in French Polynesia, has made some breathtaking cultivars.