How long to keep heavy wire with raffia on a semicascade?

[Ozz80]

I know that leyland cypresses are not the best choice to be a bonsai material. However, I decided to use a cheap tree for practicing heavy wiring with raffia. So I bended the 2 cm thick side trunk of a cheap leylandii into a semicascade using 2 wires with thickness of 4.5 mm over raffia. I also used several guide wires attached to the nursery pot. (I made a mistake at a point where the latter wire crossed over the first one. I also slightly cracked it at some point, but it served it's training purpose, lessons learned.)

How long do you suggest me to keep the wires on the tree? Can I keep them until next spring?

Note: I know that the tree was ugly and looks uglier now . In any case, due to the cost,it would not hurt much if it dies or I end up with severe wire scars or I can't handle the chaotic and coarse branch structure. But I still want to give it a chance, at least for using as a practice material.

 

[shohin_branches]

Some of my conifers I leave wire on for two years. It depends on how much you fertilize and how fast it grows. I let wire bite in a little on conifers before removing but monitor. If wire is biting in a lot a year and a half from now feel empowered to cut it off and reapply it if needed.

One suggestion though is to use thicker wire and more space between your coils then wrap the coils laying next to each other like two nested half helix instead of a double helix. Here is an example of how I wired a hard bend I did on a spruce.


Don't forget to wire your primary branches too. They'll only become less flexible as they age.

One thing to also consider with a cascade is tipping the tree orientation to get the lean you want. I like to use wood wedges so I can hold the pot correctly on the bench and I know what I'm aiming for next time I repot.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I wet my raffia along with watering the pot. It tends to degrade faster than the wire bites in, most of the times.
With a box cutter you should be able to cut the strands in between the wire.

Raffia serves a function for about a week, after that the wood is usually no longer tensed up.

 

[Ozz80]

Some of my conifers I leave wire on for two years. It depends on how much you fertilize and how fast it grows. I let wire bite in a little on conifers before removing but monitor. If wire is biting in a lot a year and a half from now feel empowered to cut it off and reapply it if needed.

One suggestion though is to use thicker wire and more space between your coils then wrap the coils laying next to each other like two nested half helix instead of a double helix. Here is an example of how I wired a hard bend I did on a spruce.
View attachment 596285

Don't forget to wire your primary branches too. They'll only become less flexible as they age.

One thing to also consider with a cascade is tipping the tree orientation to get the lean you want. I like to use wood wedges so I can hold the pot correctly on the bench and I know what I'm aiming for next time I repot.

Thanks for your reply. I understand from your answer that, it is safe to keep them until the next spring, whereas the duration can be extended to 2 years. I'll be on the cautious side, considering that l am inexperienced in wiring and I might have done mistakes. Besides, leyland cypress is a fast growing species and that may be a reason why it is not regarded as a suitable tree for bonsai. So wire bite can be quicker than expected.

As for the orientation, I guess the tree looks ugly on every angle due to the straight trunk line and it is a bit too thick to be bendable. Maybe after two years, my next practice on this tree will be bending with splitting the trunk . Or maybe I'll chop it completely

Meanwhile I will wire primary branches as soon as possible, as you suggested.

 

[leatherback]

See whether the lower section of the trunk can be bend. Normally you should be able to bend it with double 5mm alu. The closer you can get the main bend near the soilline, the more convincing it will look.

 

[Ozz80]

See whether the lower section of the trunk can be bend. Normally you should be able to bend it with double 5mm alu. The closer you can get the main bend near the soilline, the more convincing it will look.

Thanks for the advice! I'll give it a try.

 

[Ozz80]

I wet my raffia along with watering the pot. It tends to degrade faster than the wire bites in, most of the times.
With a box cutter you should be able to cut the strands in between the wire.

Raffia serves a function for about a week, after that the wood is usually no longer tensed up.

I have a sprinkler system in the yard, so it will get wet unintentionally, I will remove it after a week as you suggested. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Shibui]

Thanks for your reply. I understand from your answer that, it is safe to keep them until the next spring, whereas the duration can be extended to 2 years. I'll be on the cautious side, considering that l am inexperienced in wiring and I might have done mistakes. Besides, leyland cypress is a fast growing species and that may be a reason why it is not regarded as a suitable tree for bonsai. So wire bite can be quicker than expected.

Definitely keep a close watch. Wire marks and how long to set a branch depends on growth. Faster growth means it sets sooner. Slower growth means longer to the branch staying in place.
Growth, and therefore time to set in place, will depend on how well you care for the tree because that dictates how well it will grow. It also depends on your location as some areas have longer/better growing seasons.
Time to set in place also varies with the size and strength of the branch being bent. Young, green shoots can set in just a few weeks. Older, thicker branches will take longer.

Always remove wire before it marks the bark, because wire marks take years to grow out. If the branch starts to move back to the old position, then rewire with new wire and bend back to position. Eventually it will stay.
Fortunately, raffia wrap protects the bark from wire marks but it can leave raffia marks as the trunk thickens. Check thickening both above and below the wrap. If you see any bulges remove both wire and wrap ASAP.

I understand the purpose is to try techniques. Just need to say that raffia wrap is only necessary when bending very brittle wood or when making tight bends. I'm pretty confident that bend could have easily been made without raffia wrap protection.

 

[Ozz80]

I understand the purpose is to try techniques. Just need to say that raffia wrap is only necessary when bending very brittle wood or when making tight bends. I'm pretty confident that bend could have easily been made without raffia wrap protection.

Thanks for the clarification. After seeing videos that thick branches are covered with raffia for bending, I assumed that it was the norm for every species.

Possibly due to my poor wiring (maybe not wrapping the coils next to each other as @shohin_branches suggested), guy wires are holding the bend at the moment mostly, rather than bonsai wires.

 

[Ozz80]

The base of the trunk has a thickness of 7 cm's (which makes 2.75 inches). Can I go without raffia for the main trunk bend which @leatherback suggested?

 

[leatherback]

Heavy bends are always tricky, and require raffia to ensure the fibres to not break through the bark. I think what was suggested is that a bend like the one you have made is not an extreme bend. Maybe check the video below for pushing the bend down more.

Note, this sort of bending is ideally NOT done in the middle of the growing season, as bark-slipping becomes a risk if you are not confident in wiring & bending.

 

[Ozz80]

Heavy bends are always tricky, and require raffia to ensure the fibres to not break through the bark. I think what was suggested is that a bend like the one you have made is not an extreme bend. Maybe check the video below for pushing the bend down more.

Note, this sort of bending is ideally NOT done in the middle of the growing season, as bark-slipping becomes a risk if you are not confident in wiring & bending.

Thanks for the reply. I learned a lot from your videos and still learning. They are a great resource for beginners. (and maybe even for experts)

I am sending the initial photo of the tree. I might have already done too much work on this. I I am not going to touch it anymore until next spring. Better be cautious, especially if these are your first steps.

 

[Ruddigger]

The reason your wire isnt holding is because it’s too small, and because the angle of the wire is too shallow. It’s basically cutting across the branch at almost 90°, it should be a nice consistent 45°.

 

[Shibui]

The base of the trunk has a thickness of 7 cm's (which makes 2.75 inches). Can I go without raffia for the main trunk bend which @leatherback suggested?

It is not about thickness. It is about how sharp the bends will be. A gentle arching bend will rarely break a trunk or branch. Thicker wood just requires thicker/stronger wires to hold in position. Some species are naturally more flexible and easier to bend (Pine, Larch). Others are stiffer and hard to bend (Juniper). Others can be brittle and snap easily (Azalea, maple). It takes some experience to know which are which. Initially it's probably prudent to be conservative and treat everything as stiff and easy to break.

If you are planning a similar arching bend like the other trunk I would not bother with wrap. If you plan on making a tighter bend, like @leatherback made in the tree in the video, raffia might help reduce chances of breaking it.
Raffia will not make it easier to bend. You will still need stronger wires and maybe several wires side by side to make the bend stay put.
Try bending that trunk with bare hands to estimate the force required to bend it. Now bend a piece of wire. If the wire is harder to bend than the trunk it will probably be strong enough to hold that bend in place.

I can confirm that bending while trees are growing in Spring can cause parts of branches or trunks to die. Much better to wait until later in Summer or through Fall.

Some other tips for bending:
Trees that have been allowed to get slightly dry will bend more easily than the same tree that has just been watered well.
Sharper bends can be made over several sessions. Bend as far as you are game then set the tree aside to rest. A few hours later, or next day, It is usually possible to bend further with less chance of breaking it.

 

[leatherback]

Sharper bends can be made over several sessions. Bend as far as you are game then set the tree aside to rest. A few hours later, or next day, It is usually possible to bend further with less chance of breaking it.

Very important tip, that often is not part of common knowledge

 

[Ozz80]

It is not about thickness. It is about how sharp the bends will be. A gentle arching bend will rarely break a trunk or branch. Thicker wood just requires thicker/stronger wires to hold in position. Some species are naturally more flexible and easier to bend (Pine, Larch). Others are stiffer and hard to bend (Juniper). Others can be brittle and snap easily (Azalea, maple). It takes some experience to know which are which. Initially it's probably prudent to be conservative and treat everything as stiff and easy to break.

If you are planning a similar arching bend like the other trunk I would not bother with wrap. If you plan on making a tighter bend, like @leatherback made in the tree in the video, raffia might help reduce chances of breaking it.
Raffia will not make it easier to bend. You will still need stronger wires and maybe several wires side by side to make the bend stay put.
Try bending that trunk with bare hands to estimate the force required to bend it. Now bend a piece of wire. If the wire is harder to bend than the trunk it will probably be strong enough to hold that bend in place.

I can confirm that bending while trees are growing in Spring can cause parts of branches or trunks to die. Much better to wait until later in Summer or through Fall.

Some other tips for bending:
Trees that have been allowed to get slightly dry will bend more easily than the same tree that has just been watered well.
Sharper bends can be made over several sessions. Bend as far as you are game then set the tree aside to rest. A few hours later, or next day, It is usually possible to bend further with less chance of breaking it.

These are great advices !! Thanks for sharing.

If the side branch that I bended dies, I plan to jin it and go for a slanting style. If it, survives I will slightly bend the main trunk and then jin it in time, with the idea of something like the picture below.



I will not touch it anymore until early fall, then I will try to bend the side trunk more and also bend the main trunk slightly.