I think I maybe an addict

[cquinn]

much less of a cost than 1 nice peice of material."

You're reading too much into what I said and being a bit shortsighted (which is how I started out). Sure, the fertilizer, water and dirt cost less (arguably over development time measured in years), but you're leaving out your time. Your time is worth something. More developed stock is not more expensive because it's better or worse than seedling stock biologically. It's more expensive because of the time spent on it to develop it. In buying a more advanced piece of material, you're investing in someone else's time (or Mother Nature's time).

I didn't say working on less expensive trees wasn't valuable, but it can become a drag on your time--over time.

Nothing wrong with using SOME of it, but devoting ALL your time to such material ultimately wastes your resources. If you can't apply what you've learned with it to a better piece of material, what have you actually accomplished? Sometime down the line, you've got to put that experience to use. That time may be next year, five years, or ten years from now, but at some point you will find yourself looking at the plants you've developed from such humble beginnings and realizing you've grown beyond it -- regardless of whether or not you're looking to develop a "show tree."

I took the plunge when I was into bonsai only four years. I bought a $400 imported Korean Hornbeam. Just learning how to care for that tree, when and what to prune taught me more in a year than I had learned in the last four. If the dang thing had died, my wife would have shot me...

"I get much more satisfaction though out of a mediocre tree that I shaped completely myself than a masterpiece already designed for 40 years."

That's the thing. A masterpiece bonsai is NEVER "finished" It changes, it grows or dies back, etc. It offers a new set of unfamiliar challenges that stretch you and your abilities. You will no longer worry about all the same things, as you do with the "mediocre" stock you're working with. You will be challenged to become a better horticulturalist and artist...

"some day if I buy a really nice tree, I know how to water it, prune it, when to repot, what diseases it might be more susectible to, etc. What's so hard about growing out trees anyways?"

More advanced stock requires a more refined understanding of not only how to grow it (fertliization, pruning, repotting, and just about everything else is not the same the more developed a tree is), but also how to make it your own with the right design. Trees are not mechanical. Each is different. What works for one, may not work for another. Older trees respond very differently than younger trees. Don't make the mistake of thinking your education will end with your first "finished" tree.

Thanks rockm! I was going to respond, but I think you hit the nail on the head. I would also like to add that bonsai IS about the feeling a DISPLAY gives its viewers. Bonsai should be created and designed with how, what time of year, and what accents will be used with it for display. The feelings of growing trees yourself are ego, and that has no place in traditional bonsai philosophy. Bonsai No Kokoro is learning about that nothing is permanent, but that beauty can also be briefly captured in the change. Aged trees that have been worked on by hands that have long since been dead offer us this. I have a couple like these and I'm in awe every time I water them. I understand that I'm only a caretaker, and that actually we are the same (the tree and I). Made of water, matter, and air.

Sorry if I got too deep, but one has to understand this if they are to understand Japanese Bonsai. That's the problem with most American attitudes of "I want to do it my way", "The trees are too perfect", "Bonsai should reflect the way trees look in the U.S.". Bonsai is not about the trees! It's about the Seasons, Mountains, Wind, and even Stone.

 

[jferrier]

Thanks rockm! I was going to respond, but I think you hit the nail on the head. I would also like to add that bonsai IS about the feeling a DISPLAY gives its viewers. Bonsai should be created and designed with how, what time of year, and what accents will be used with it for display. The feelings of growing trees yourself are ego, and that has no place in traditional bonsai philosophy. Bonsai No Kokoro is learning about that nothing is permanent, but that beauty can also be briefly captured in the change. Aged trees that have been worked on by hands that have long since been dead offer us this. I have a couple like these and I'm in awe every time I water them. I understand that I'm only a caretaker, and that actually we are the same (the tree and I). Made of water, matter, and air.

Sorry if I got too deep, but one has to understand this if they are to understand Japanese Bonsai. That's the problem with most American attitudes of "I want to do it my way", "The trees are too perfect", "Bonsai should reflect the way trees look in the U.S.". Bonsai is not about the trees! It's about the Seasons, Mountains, Wind, and even Stone.

Kum ba yah! Kum ba yah! Was it ego that caused the first person to start those trees you are working on? It's great you have the opportunity and experience to work on trees like that, but not all of us do. We have to work with what we have. To me ego is being too good to work on anything but $1000 trees that are more "refined". And why shouldn't trees reflect the way they look in the US? Why would I want a Cedar elm to look like a tree in Japan? Naka's Bonsai Techniques 2 have lots of sketches developed from trees in the US that look like that tree looks naturally here.

 

[jferrier]

Some older trees don't respond as quickly to pruning. Some do, but you have to know when to do it to some trees.

They need to be left alone in their pots for more time. Frequent repottings (like every three years) can slow them, or kill them. Branches and trunks are developed and you're looking for more ramification, along with denser growth on developed branching. That means fertilization has to be more targeted, not as aggressive, or both.

With older trees, deadwood can develop. Understanding how to deal with that (I mean beyond carving and lime sulphur) effectively is required. Dead wood can run down into the root mass and lead to rot from the inside of a tree...Those are a few.

Like people, young trees may or may not, be able to overcome mistakes more easily. It depends on the mistake and the owner's seeing the mistake...

Thanks for the reply!

 

[rockm]

"To me ego is being too good to work on anything but $1000 trees that are more "refined". And why shouldn't trees reflect the way they look in the US?"

There is a bit of ego in the above statement. It shows a misunderstanding of what motivates most people working with more advanced trees. It's not ego, although there are some who only do it for that. I've got friends who just like to work with older, more advanced trees--some are expensive, others are not. Some of those people have gone on to work with the trees at the National Arboretum. They do it because they love the trees for what they are -- old characters with a history--some with extremely long histories.

There are more than a few folks in America that have really REALLY expensive trees that never leave their backyards. They're not in it for ego. They're in it for the trees. I have a collected live oak that says something to me spiritually--yeah, I know KumBayyah.... I can't explain it, but it just speaks. Most of the older stock I have "says" something, or I wouldn't have it. Younger stock tends not to say much of anything, even with artificial aging techniques. There is nothing like real age to provide resonance in a bonsai.

The thought that working with older, more expensive trees is all about ego and money is a stereotype and misses a more valuable point. Most people work with such material because they simply love trees. I know of one person who travels to Japan every year to learn about how to care and refine azalea bonsai. He has a blinding collection of huge imported Japanese azaleas at home (each is probalby worth $5 grand--he has a dozen or so). He doesn't show them, or at least I've never seen them at an exhibit. I don't think he even belongs to a club. I think he just loves working on old azaleas--the likes of which you won't find in an American nursery, or as a landscape plant.

I like to work on larger collected Southern U.S. species --including Cedar Elm. While I've not spent over a grand on any tree, I can certainly understand those that do. Older trees are an addiction because they provide more depth the experience of working with a tree. Let me put it this way, would you rather work on a nursery tree grown all it's short life in a plastic container, or would you rather work with a tree that has a dozen owners, lived in all sorts of places, or was perhaps growing in a Texas thicket for 200 years and has all the scars to prove it?

Until you have worked with such material, it's hard to understand.

 

[cquinn]

"To me ego is being too good to work on anything but $1000 trees that are more "refined". And why shouldn't trees reflect the way they look in the US?"

There is a bit of ego in the above statement. It shows a misunderstanding of what motivates most people working with more advanced trees. It's not ego, although there are some who only do it for that. I've got friends who just like to work with older, more advanced trees--some are expensive, others are not. Some of those people have gone on to work with the trees at the National Arboretum. They do it because they love the trees for what they are -- old characters with a history--some with extremely long histories.

There are more than a few folks in America that have really REALLY expensive trees that never leave their backyards. They're not in it for ego. They're in it for the trees. I have a collected live oak that says something to me spiritually--yeah, I know KumBayyah.... I can't explain it, but it just speaks. Most of the older stock I have "says" something, or I wouldn't have it. Younger stock tends not to say much of anything, even with artificial aging techniques. There is nothing like real age to provide resonance in a bonsai.

The thought that working with older, more expensive trees is all about ego and money is a stereotype and misses a more valuable point. Most people work with such material because they simply love trees. I know of one person who travels to Japan every year to learn about how to care and refine azalea bonsai. He has a blinding collection of huge imported Japanese azaleas at home (each is probalby worth $5 grand--he has a dozen or so). He doesn't show them, or at least I've never seen them at an exhibit. I don't think he even belongs to a club. I think he just loves working on old azaleas--the likes of which you won't find in an American nursery, or as a landscape plant.

I like to work on larger collected Southern U.S. species --including Cedar Elm. While I've not spent over a grand on any tree, I can certainly understand those that do. Older trees are an addiction because they provide more depth the experience of working with a tree. Let me put it this way, would you rather work on a nursery tree grown all it's short life in a plastic container, or would you rather work with a tree that has a dozen owners, lived in all sorts of places, or was perhaps growing in a Texas thicket for 200 years and has all the scars to prove it?

Until you have worked with such material, it's hard to understand.

Well written! Really gets to the heart of the matter. I should also make a point that I propogate as well. I must have somewhere around 75 trident and Momiji seedlings in trays and wooden boxes. I also understand that I will be very old before they are worthy of the name bonsai, and that I will never see them mature fully. Knowing this and still doing it along with the appreciation of old bonsai is Bonsai No Kokoro.

 

[jferrier]

"To me ego is being too good to work on anything but $1000 trees that are more "refined". And why shouldn't trees reflect the way they look in the US?"

There is a bit of ego in the above statement. It shows a misunderstanding of what motivates most people working with more advanced trees. It's not ego, although there are some who only do it for that. I've got friends who just like to work with older, more advanced trees--some are expensive, others are not. Some of those people have gone on to work with the trees at the National Arboretum. They do it because they love the trees for what they are -- old characters with a history--some with extremely long histories.

There are more than a few folks in America that have really REALLY expensive trees that never leave their backyards. They're not in it for ego. They're in it for the trees. I have a collected live oak that says something to me spiritually--yeah, I know KumBayyah.... I can't explain it, but it just speaks. Most of the older stock I have "says" something, or I wouldn't have it. Younger stock tends not to say much of anything, even with artificial aging techniques. There is nothing like real age to provide resonance in a bonsai.

The thought that working with older, more expensive trees is all about ego and money is a stereotype and misses a more valuable point. Most people work with such material because they simply love trees. I know of one person who travels to Japan every year to learn about how to care and refine azalea bonsai. He has a blinding collection of huge imported Japanese azaleas at home (each is probalby worth $5 grand--he has a dozen or so). He doesn't show them, or at least I've never seen them at an exhibit. I don't think he even belongs to a club. I think he just loves working on old azaleas--the likes of which you won't find in an American nursery, or as a landscape plant.

I like to work on larger collected Southern U.S. species --including Cedar Elm. While I've not spent over a grand on any tree, I can certainly understand those that do. Older trees are an addiction because they provide more depth the experience of working with a tree. Let me put it this way, would you rather work on a nursery tree grown all it's short life in a plastic container, or would you rather work with a tree that has a dozen owners, lived in all sorts of places, or was perhaps growing in a Texas thicket for 200 years and has all the scars to prove it?

Until you have worked with such material, it's hard to understand.

Rock:
Of course, there's no one who wouldn't want a tree like that. My statement was just a stab back at Cquinn. I don't blame anyone for getting one if they can afford that caliper of tree. I would get many myself if I could. I just don't like being told that preferring to work on something completely myself is ego. Its not ego. I'm not expecting that I will produce the world's greatest masterpiece. I just enjoy it more. I just felt like I was being given this elitist attitude of I am guru of all bonsai, and your way is wrong. I would love to own a Picasso, but having the ability to restore one or maintain it, just wouldn't give me the same spiritual feeling as painting my own work. Even if it sucked. And I know that illustration will probably be challenged since a painting is not a living growing thing, but both are forms of art and developed based on a persons own philosophy. I'm not Japanese, so their philosophy does not have to match mine. If someone else wants to adopt that philosophy good for them, but don't tell me how I should change my faulty American attitude.

 

[rockm]

"My statement was just a stab back at Cquinn. I don't blame anyone for getting one if they can afford that caliper of tree. I would get many myself if I could. I just don't like being told that preferring to work on something completely myself is ego. Its not ego. I'm not expecting that I will produce the world's greatest masterpiece. I just enjoy it more. I just felt like I was being given this elitist attitude of I am guru of all bonsai, and your way is wrong. I would love to own a Picasso, but having the ability to restore one or maintain it, just wouldn't give me the same spiritual feeling as painting my own work. Even if it sucked."

The above contains more than a bit of ego. If your ego weren't involved, you wouldn't be making distictions like what "sucks" and what doesn't. You didn't get an elitist attitude, IMO, you were just insulted. Those without ego can't really be insulted. He didn't come off to me as "the guru of all bonsai" just commenting on a common theme in bonsai.

Anyway, ego has a place in doing bonsai. It is part of the deal in any artform. Artists rarely "do art for themselves" even though they like to say that a lot as it sounds spiritual. However, some of the best art has come from the desire to create, but also to create to impress others. The competition among impressionist artists is legend. Manet, Monet, and the rest painted to show off. There are other comparisons too, some dating back to ancient Greece, China and Japan.

Be real. It's nice to create a tree that pleases you, but deep down isn't it a little cool to make a tree that impresses others--even a little bit? C'mon...Even if you don't want to become some "bonsai notable" you at least like to be considered a competent bonsaiist by others.

BTW, I wouldn't want own a Picasso. Nice picture, but it just hangs there. Trees do not simply hang there. They change--by themselves or with help from us. You can't leave a painting alone to make a completely different painting. Bonsai demand redesigns. That they grow is no small matter. Redesign, even COMPLETE redesign, is common. That ability to become something else sets them pretty far apart from "regular" arts like painting and sculpture (NO, BONSAI IS NOT SCULPTURE --sorry one of my pet peeves). They are FOUR dimensional (time) and unlike any other art.

 

[jferrier]

Anyway, ego has a place in doing bonsai. It is part of the deal in any artform.

Cquinn:
"The feelings of growing trees yourself are ego, and that has no place in traditional bonsai philosophy."

Does ego have a place or doesn't it?

I base "what sucks" on proportion (golden mean,etc) geometry, flow, the blurring of is it a real tree or bonsai, the experience of being able to place myself in the scene or not. These are all measurable, or quantifiable. I can take a ruler and measure the proportions. Good design whether bonsai, art, architecture, sculpture has proportion. Some may not even realize it, but certain shapes and proportions are more appealing to the minds eye than others. When I look at a tree I either can or can't picture myself in the scene. Ego is "The part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity" My personal identity is not measurable, nor is yours. And though it may be hard to believe, I don't want to try to impress anyone else with my trees. It's just a hobby I enjoy.

Look, all I was trying to do initially is relate to the original post since it seemed that most had rained on the guy's parade.

 

[rockm]

"I base "what sucks" on proportion (golden mean,etc) geometry, flow, the blurring of is it a real tree or bonsai, the experience of being able to place myself in the scene or not. These are all measurable, or quantifiable. I can take a ruler and measure the proportions."

Throw the ruler out. Some stuff works even if it isn't proportional or even "attractive." Bonsai is only measureable in the eyes of the beholder. Being able to "place yourself in the scene" is hardly a mathematical approach.

"Look, all I was trying to do initially is relate to the original post since it seemed that most had rained on the guy's parade."

Too much sunshine makes a desert. Rain is necessary for growth, grasshoppa, Kumbayyah ;-) double ;-)

 

[tnaz71]

I really am enjoying & learning quite a bit from watching this post progress.

I have trees of all types, "free trash trees" and some I have collected from people's yards, I frequently go to a local bonsai nursery & buy already made bonsai, pre bonsai. I have trees that I paid way too much for & slept in the dog house for a month lol.. I personally enjoy all of them! I am learning all the time on how to do things. Yes, the ones that have more development & that cost more initially are further progressed & do teach me more on refining techniques. But the trash trees teach me a lot about the more advanced techniques that I wouldn't dare to do on more expensive stock.

The only lessons I have regarding bonsai was from my mom's boyfriend about 20yrs ago. He studied under a master for a few years & he was teaching me the art before he passed. I have no time to go to clubs, at this moment in time I learn from forums like this & books. So for me in my case it's me doing something, messing up till I get it right.

I really do appreciate all the help & discussions that these forums provide. For people like me who are not into showing, can't go to clubs etc it's invaluable.

 

[jferrier]

I really am enjoying & learning quite a bit from watching this post progress.

I have trees of all types, "free trash trees" and some I have collected from people's yards, I frequently go to a local bonsai nursery & buy already made bonsai, pre bonsai. I have trees that I paid way too much for & slept in the dog house for a month lol.. I personally enjoy all of them! I am learning all the time on how to do things. Yes, the ones that have more development & that cost more initially are further progressed & do teach me more on refining techniques. But the trash trees teach me a lot about the more advanced techniques that I wouldn't dare to do on more expensive stock.

The only lessons I have regarding bonsai was from my mom's boyfriend about 20yrs ago. He studied under a master for a few years & he was teaching me the art before he passed. I have no time to go to clubs, at this moment in time I learn from forums like this & books. So for me in my case it's me doing something, messing up till I get it right.

I really do appreciate all the help & discussions that these forums provide. For people like me who are not into showing, can't go to clubs etc it's invaluable.

This is my point. He like I have found value in "junk" trees. He like I, is not spending all his time on these and never working on more developed trees. Is trying to develop a hopeless tree setting him back in his skills? I admit it may not be doing much towards teaching fine development techniques, but if one has the time to devote to those trees and specimen quality then what's the harm?

 

[rockm]

I don't think anyone said there was any harm in working with such trees. In fact, I agreed with you. What I have said is that they're nice--up to a point...

 

[cquinn]

Final point (I thought I made it earlier in a round about way).

Bonsai is about the feeling from display. In order to get to that level you have to have a somewhat finished tree. In a nutshell that's what I was trying to say. Got to go cut some candles. Peace!