I picked up this kamache hime over the weekend - For some odd reason it was in the 1/2 off section. Obviously, this tree is grafted and I wanted to know if I could perform a ground layer over the graft union of the trunk. I will not be starting the graft now and will wait for next spring.
Kamache Hime - Airlayer over Graft?
- Thread starter dbonsaiw
- Start date
Srt8madness
Omono
I don't really think it's needed, it takes a minute just to see the graft at all. Unless you're dead set on a triple trunk.
As others have mentioned, developing and layering off tops typically yields better (& more) trees than ground layering entire trunks.
If you layer directly over the graft union then you'll end up with some roots from the rootstock and some from the cultivar.
Awesome find btw, that's a real pretty one.
As others have mentioned, developing and layering off tops typically yields better (& more) trees than ground layering entire trunks.
If you layer directly over the graft union then you'll end up with some roots from the rootstock and some from the cultivar.
Awesome find btw, that's a real pretty one.
Is this an issue? I'd like to graft on the graft union itself to preserve the broom-ish style of the tree.
Wood
Shohin
Does Kamache hime layer well? If the roots aren't as vigorous as standard green maple, then it might have uneven root growth. Merrigioli's maple book mentions several cultivars that are primarily grafted due to how week their roots are
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
The only thing that is obvious to me is that this is a field-grown tree that was originally presented for sale as ball in burlap. In many retail settings, it can become troublesome to keep the ball damp, so retailers often toss it into a big pot, just as this one is. This kind of 'inconvenience' may explain why it was discounted. Regardless, the roots on field grown trees typically are nightmarish.
And this brings me to the revelation that there is more than one thing that is obvious - you haven't even taken a look at the nebari.
And this brings me to the revelation that there is more than one thing that is obvious - you haven't even taken a look at the nebari.
In a word, yes. I assumed the roots are a nightmare and clearly have not looked at the nebari (thus the ground layer question). The roots are also in a lump of clay - one more reason why if this doesn't end up as a landscape tree I want to ground layer this tree. I will not be satisfied developing a bonsai with a graft line. Branching on the tree starts fairly low, so I want to keep the trunk as tall as I can after the layer.
Which brings me back to my question about performing the ground layer on the graft itself. Obviously, this can be done and will produce new roots. Performing the layer this way will allow me to keep more of the trunk so this is more a broom than a multi-trunk.
So this is this question (feel free to opine on whatever issue one would like, but this is the question actually presented) - If the ground layer is performed on the graft itself, thereby leaving the top "ugly" portion of the graft really low down, will the growing nebari shape the base in such a way that the graft line can actually be hidden/blend nicely? Said somewhat differently, can one successfully use the graft line to their advantage in developing the nebari by growing roots out of the swollen section of the graft line? Can the graft line be made to look like taper from the root flare or will this always look like a graft line?
Canada Bonsai
Shohin
- Messages
- 464
- Reaction score
- 1,386
Personally, the easier and more controlled route that i see for developing fine bonsai from this stock would be starting from cuttings.
There is nothing particularly desirable about this trunk. Once you choose a trunk-line and remove the other 2 sacrifice branches at the first junction, you will have a large scar.... and the diameter of the remaining trunk is something that can be produce rapidly (3 years) with a cutting. What i mean is that the trade off--large scar for larger trunk--is simply not worth it in this particular case especially because of all of the other factors at play.
if you happen to choose the central trunk-line, there are still further concerns (circled in red).
Air layers are often suggested as a way of resolving bad roots or grafts, but in most cases on this forum they are a complete waste of time and you'd be better off just starting properly. Air layering is a great tool, but rarely so in these situations.
If you're air layering, you might as well air layer above the graft junction.
The placement of the air layer should be largely determined by the first bend in your trunk (if any) and/or the proporpotions of the total height of the tree.
What is your final desired height? 8"? 30"? There is so much yet to be determined with any maple bonsai at this stage that it barely matters if your air layer is 0.25" higher than what currently looks like the appropriate location to you. If you're going to air layer, you might as well do it at the least problematic location (least problematic in the short term and the long term), and develop the tree going forward from there.
There is nothing particularly desirable about this trunk. Once you choose a trunk-line and remove the other 2 sacrifice branches at the first junction, you will have a large scar.... and the diameter of the remaining trunk is something that can be produce rapidly (3 years) with a cutting. What i mean is that the trade off--large scar for larger trunk--is simply not worth it in this particular case especially because of all of the other factors at play.
if you happen to choose the central trunk-line, there are still further concerns (circled in red).
Air layers are often suggested as a way of resolving bad roots or grafts, but in most cases on this forum they are a complete waste of time and you'd be better off just starting properly. Air layering is a great tool, but rarely so in these situations.
If you're air layering, you might as well air layer above the graft junction.
The placement of the air layer should be largely determined by the first bend in your trunk (if any) and/or the proporpotions of the total height of the tree.
What is your final desired height? 8"? 30"? There is so much yet to be determined with any maple bonsai at this stage that it barely matters if your air layer is 0.25" higher than what currently looks like the appropriate location to you. If you're going to air layer, you might as well do it at the least problematic location (least problematic in the short term and the long term), and develop the tree going forward from there.
Attachments
I am totally undecided about what to do with THIS tree. So maybe we can treat the question as a hypothetical and simply forget about this tree in particular. Let's pretend I decided to plant this tree in the ground and we can just agree that graft lines aren't a nice look. But, on a hypothetical different tree, can the graft line be used to one's advantage by layering on the graft so that the nebari grows at/right below the graft line? Will this hide the graft or even make the base of the root spread nicer? Or will I just end with a funny looking graft line further down no matter what?
Canada Bonsai
Shohin
- Messages
- 464
- Reaction score
- 1,386
@dbonsaiw you already got your answer from @Wood
Different cultivars/varieties grow in different ways/rates, so if you air layer right on the graft line (with your incision being sometimes above and sometimes below the current graft line) there is a risk that you will get roots of different variety and therefore uneven root growth during the airlayering process itself, and afterwards.
People do use seedlings to perform root grafts to improve nebaris, so in principle you should have no functional problem growing a tree with roots from different varieties. But there is always the risk that a bulge will occur wherever the 2 varieties meet, usuallly over a considerable amount of time.
Moreover, aesthetics are a serious consideration: bark can vary by color, pattern, texture, and especially in the way that those vertical striations form.
I understand that you're presenting a hypothetical situation to isolate your question as a thought experiment. That's fine , but it's what we call a 'nazi example' in the world of gedankenexperiments: it is highly unique set of circumstances that are unlikely to occur in reality. When you have the tree in front of you, just air layer it above the graft line. Nobody will ever be holding a gun to your head forcing you to perform an unwise air layer, or reveal where your relatives are hiding.
Different cultivars/varieties grow in different ways/rates, so if you air layer right on the graft line (with your incision being sometimes above and sometimes below the current graft line) there is a risk that you will get roots of different variety and therefore uneven root growth during the airlayering process itself, and afterwards.
People do use seedlings to perform root grafts to improve nebaris, so in principle you should have no functional problem growing a tree with roots from different varieties. But there is always the risk that a bulge will occur wherever the 2 varieties meet, usuallly over a considerable amount of time.
Moreover, aesthetics are a serious consideration: bark can vary by color, pattern, texture, and especially in the way that those vertical striations form.
I understand that you're presenting a hypothetical situation to isolate your question as a thought experiment. That's fine , but it's what we call a 'nazi example' in the world of gedankenexperiments: it is highly unique set of circumstances that are unlikely to occur in reality. When you have the tree in front of you, just air layer it above the graft line. Nobody will ever be holding a gun to your head forcing you to perform an unwise air layer, or reveal where your relatives are hiding.
BrightsideB
Omono
Try air layering the smaller branches and gradually work inwards. That way you can have tree’s for a forest or something. If you airlayer those two lateral branches off this year you can get in the middle and air layer that branch and still have the cultivar growing all new branches off the root stock. This is my thread doing that to two jm dwarf cultivars https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/air-layered-away.55793/#post-966687
Thought I missed the window for this.
Srt8madness
Omono
You have.
BrightsideB
Omono
Up north I guess you did. There is always next year.
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
As a brief aside, we do discuss growing bark from time to time. Grafted palmatum varieties will often 'spontaneously' ground layer if the union is simply kept damp (e.g., underground). Because I see no indication of this, it would seem that earth wasn't piled up under the tree in the field. So, I'm inferring that wrapping a stem in dry burlap induces bark growth in acer palmatum and explains why white bark is seen all the way up to the first node. Maybe a paper bag or a banana peel wrapped around the trunk would do just as well.
On the subject of nightmarish field-grown roots, I give you this example (front and back view).
Of course, this after a couple of seasons growing in Turface, hence the mat of fine roots.
Regarding ground layering, I want to bring to your attention is that one could girdle one or two of these big roots at a point near to the trunk and then bury them as ground layers. Each of the girdled roots will continue to supply water and mineral nutrients until it runs out of stored carbs (some time in the following summer, assuming the ground layer is affected in spring). The other big roots could similarly be eliminated in the subsequent years, without risking loosing the entire tree by girdling the trunk instead. Meanwhile one could proceed with just about anything else in the way of development activities for the tree.
Regarding the taboo of grafted maples, one cannot identify the union except for the fact that the prominent round uro, in the center of the first picture, is a 'graft stub'. Those little twigs at the top of the chop are 'Ukigumo' stems and the only varietal remnants of an 'Ukigumo' landscape specimen. All of the other branches are green acer palmatum (root stock). Barring this uro, I cannot, identify the graft union. The point is that an acer palmatum graft can become invisible with just modest age.
A final note is that @clem has some threads here chronicling development from cuttings that @Canada Bonsai urges be done.
On the subject of nightmarish field-grown roots, I give you this example (front and back view).
Of course, this after a couple of seasons growing in Turface, hence the mat of fine roots.Regarding ground layering, I want to bring to your attention is that one could girdle one or two of these big roots at a point near to the trunk and then bury them as ground layers. Each of the girdled roots will continue to supply water and mineral nutrients until it runs out of stored carbs (some time in the following summer, assuming the ground layer is affected in spring). The other big roots could similarly be eliminated in the subsequent years, without risking loosing the entire tree by girdling the trunk instead. Meanwhile one could proceed with just about anything else in the way of development activities for the tree.
Regarding the taboo of grafted maples, one cannot identify the union except for the fact that the prominent round uro, in the center of the first picture, is a 'graft stub'. Those little twigs at the top of the chop are 'Ukigumo' stems and the only varietal remnants of an 'Ukigumo' landscape specimen. All of the other branches are green acer palmatum (root stock). Barring this uro, I cannot, identify the graft union. The point is that an acer palmatum graft can become invisible with just modest age.
A final note is that @clem has some threads here chronicling development from cuttings that @Canada Bonsai urges be done.
Last edited:
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Theoretically, Yes.
I believe that roots close below a graft will disguise most of the imperfections of a graft. Normal root growth as they join the trunk results in some unevenness, swelling and often a change in color so a graft close to the roots should be less noticeable. Good lateral roots almost always cause the base of the trunk to spread and buttress which should help preserve taper close below a swelling graft. Of course, that will depend on the rate of swelling at the graft and the actual distance between roots and swelling.
In general I'd say worth trying.
Juts be aware that some grafts are a long sloping cut so the change from stock to scion may be considerably higher on one side than the other which may impact on the results. Root growth from the different varieties may be more or less vigorous as already mentioned by a couple of posts above so I would try to confine the layer to the original stock where possible.
This is slightly different proposal because when a graft swells it is often the scion that swells above the stock. Layering at the swollen area would therefore entail layering the scion variety which may or may not root well and may or may not survive well on its own roots after layering.
.
