Large Seiju Elm Stock

[JonW]

I have this large, field grown seiju elm that is fully transitioned to bonsai soil and ready to be worked. Its a 2+ inch trunk at the base. I've seen a handful of seiju elms where people settle with steam-pipe straight sections, and I've considered largely leaving this tree as-is, but I have limited space, I like smaller trees, and I think I'd be better taking it down from 30-some-inches to about 12-inches and growing a new leader. While the trunks don't start right at ground level, I am thinking of a mother-daughter design, cutting right above the thick branch on the left and making that the daughter, then chopping slightly higher on the other trunk and growing a new leader (mother) bending over the sub-trunk (daughter).

Do you guys do trunk chops in the fall on your elms, wait for bud-push in spring, or after first flush like on maples? I've done fall in the past.

These pics are from July. It is still growing strongly. The pics are labeled in terms of how I'm currently perceiving the plant (ie,. front, back, sides).

Front:


Left side:


Back:


Right side:

 

[BrianBay9]

If you're going to make this a twin trunk you might think about a ground layer near where the two trunks divide. You have a bit of reverse taper there, so a ground layer would take care of that and make your trunks divide near ground level. I'm not sure you have enough of a difference in thickness between your trunks to consider it a "mother/daughter", but that's just a name. As far as when to chop, you'd be better taking advice from someone in your climate zone.

Have fun!

 

[JonW]

If you're going to make this a twin trunk you might think about a ground layer near where the two trunks divide. You have a bit of reverse taper there, so a ground layer would take care of that and make your trunks divide near ground level. I'm not sure you have enough of a difference in thickness between your trunks to consider it a "mother/daughter", but that's just a name. As far as when to chop, you'd be better taking advice from someone in your climate zone.

Have fun!

Thanks! My eye didn't catch that as reverse taper (it looked natural for the two trunks converging), but I see what you are saying. Ground layering would be a good idea - I have no idea what the roots look like, but I might get better results from layering. Your also right about the mother-daughter - in fact, the mother trunk looks slightly less thick to me, which either means it isn't a great plan, or I'll have to do a lot of growth management for a few years to grow a convincing leader. That's my major hesitation about that plan.

I also considered removing one of the trunks completely (the one on the right) and using the the side view (left side) as a front (also removing the long, straight upward trunk and keeping the left branch as a leader), but that may take away from what the tree has naturally offered... It would make itself a nice, squat tree with decent taper, leaning toward the viewer, ok movement, and all the chops would be at the back

I posted on our local bonsai club facebook page, but didn't get responses. I've talked with one member a while back about seiju and he said he'd chop anytime during dormancy, but I think I'd be cautious about doing it anytime beyond 2-weeks after leaves change color until I see signs of growth as to avoid open, unhealed wounds. I overwinter under bulkhead/storm doors, so it stays above freezing and below 50 (usually 35-45).

 

[WNC Bonsai]

These air layer easily and cuttings root quickly. I just air layered a branch off mine in 6 weeks and also placed cuttings in small pots filled with sphagnum moss in large zip lock bags in shade and they rooted just as quickly. I now have 4 Chinese elms instead of just one.

 

[JonW]

These air layer easily and cuttings root quickly. I just air layered a branch off mine in 6 weeks and also placed cuttings in small pots filled with sphagnum moss in large zip lock bags in shade and they rooted just as quickly. I now have 4 Chinese elms instead of just one.

Yeah maybe I should have air layered it earlier in the summer

 

[coh]

So browsing through this thread, I saw this in your tree (based on first photo). If you were to eliminate both of the upper parts of the trunks (layer if you want more material to work with):



Then if you were to tilt the tree to the right a bit:



Maybe even tilt further to the right. I think you'd also want to chop that right trunk lower than I've indicated, just above the first branch on the right and regrow an apex there. You could still do a ground layer at or just below the split, but I think this particular styling approach works better if there is some trunk below the split. If you choose to layer closer to the split, you might need to do something different.

There are still some issues, that straight trunk segment on the left (above the split) is kind of unattractive. Could bring some foliage from the right side over to break up that straight section. Also the 2 trunk sections are very similar in thickness, but you could let some branches run wild to thicken one or the other (probably the left).

Just one potential approach with the material.

 

[Davidlpf]

Sorry man, but it is not that big!! (Someone has to tell you )

Despite the small leaf size, seiju could be a respectable tree if you let it grow

This one looks bigger than yours too, but maybe you could style in a similar form.

Some say that size really don't matter, so don't worry and enjoy what you have.

It is a good material anyway.

Cheers.

 

[JonW]

Sorry man, but it is not that big!! (Someone has to tell you )

Despite the small leaf size, seiju could be a respectable tree if you let it grow

This one looks bigger than yours too, but maybe you could style in a similar form.

Some say that size really don't matter, so don't worry and enjoy what you have.

It is a good material anyway.

Cheers.

Certainly didn't mean to imply it is the biggest. Sort of an odd idea - the largest bonsai - kinda like the tallest little person... But it is pretty chunky for a bonsai, especially one with such small leaves, and for my collection which is all shohin. I have kingsville boxwood, chojubai quince, lonicera nitida, sekka hinoki cypress - all very small leaves and compact growth, so a 3-foot tall elm in a massive training pot is large by my relative standards.

I need to figure out an image editing app so I can make a depiction of my thoughts for this tree...

 

[BobbyLane]

many deciduous trees take on this type of form, with some searching you could find many trees that started like it or look like it. bonsais and wild trees too. a couple were shown above with similar characteristics. i just found one in the search bar, one i had in a similar form from tall double trunk through to me chopping and re growing it.

Oak style-Chinese Elm

Hi all, here is a little Ulmus parvifolia ive been working on a couple seasons, well it spent just over a season in the ground.. I got it like this IMAG1564 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr IMAG1569 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr was never entirely happy with it and cut it back IMAG1776 by Bobby Lane, on...

www.bonsainut.com

i use a simple editor on chrome/windows 10. there are loads in the google playstore

 

[Forsoothe!]

Once again: Wants shohin; buys 3 foot tall. ? Unclear on the concept of learning how to shop?

 

[BobbyLane]

Certainly didn't mean to imply it is the biggest. Sort of an odd idea - the largest bonsai - kinda like the tallest little person... But it is pretty chunky for a bonsai, especially one with such small leaves, and for my collection which is all shohin. I have kingsville boxwood, chojubai quince, lonicera nitida, sekka hinoki cypress - all very small leaves and compact growth, so a 3-foot tall elm in a massive training pot is large by my relative standards.

I need to figure out an image editing app so I can make a depiction of my thoughts for this tree...

Coh was kind enough to lay out a virt for you above too.

@Forsoothe! its perfectly fine to start big and go small. sometimes the better material is seen in a large trunk, but we might only want the bottom half of the tree. it might only have a great base or some nice low branches, some movement etc etc its usually the quicker way to a mature looking trunk/stump. with work you can close or carve wounds or make them so obscure that noone can even tell the tree was reduced, depending on the material.

 

[Hartinez]

Once again: Wants shohin; buys 3 foot tall. ? Unclear on the concept of learning how to shop?

This makes no sense. Often we buy 3 foot tall trees because the first 6-8” are the tree, not the remaining 2’6”.

 

[JonW]

Coh was kind enough to lay out a virt for you above too.

@Forsoothe! its perfectly fine to start big and go small. sometimes the better material is seen in a large trunk, but we might only want the bottom half of the tree. it might only have a great base or some nice low branches, some movement etc etc its usually the quicker way to a mature looking trunk/stump. with work you can close or carve wounds or make them so obscure that noone can even tell the tree was reduced, depending on the material.

This makes no sense. Often we buy 3 foot tall trees because the first 6-8” are the tree, not the remaining 2’6”.

Yep, exactly. I'm not sure where the negativity or need to be flippant comes from with the "need to learn how to shop statement." It was a grower I talked to and trusted, but I couldn't lay eyes on the tree before I bought it. He was excited that I am a fan of deciduous because he is too, and thought this tree would be a great start for something like the pics that @BobbyLane linked to above - even his deciduous trees, people tend to buy the ones that they can style like a pine. I knew it was a 2-inch trunk, and had no idea it would be quite this massive, but the intent was buying a trunk and working the material over a number of years. I don't have much space to plant material in ground for the future, so it was perfect for what I'm looking for - I feel fortunate to have it. I'm getting an equal size Hawthorn tomorrow for $30 as part of a workshop with my local bonsai club. Happy to have a big tree to reduce rather than the stick-in-a-pot plants that I'm hardly going to touch for 5 years.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

If you're going to make this a twin trunk you might think about a ground layer near where the two trunks divide.

I agree with @BrianBay9 . Mother/daughter design typically requires you to create a feeling of two separate trees connected at the soil - not a tree with a split trunk at some point higher up.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Yeah maybe I should have air layered it earlier in the summer

It’ll still be there next spring and hopefully so will you. Take your time and don’t rush your decisions.

 

[coh]

Coh was kind enough to lay out a virt for you above too.

Maybe he has me on ignore. All I know is this is the second time recently I've bothered to make a virt of someone's tree and got no response. Not even a "that's not really what I want to do with the tree, but thanks for taking the time". I think this must be the universe's way of telling me it's not worth the effort. People wonder why many threads get few if any responses...

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Trees I have to bring into my unheated well house for winter, I tend to keep smaller. Trees that I can just leave on the ground for winter, I allow to be larger. Bending and lifting are not my thing. (curse of being a fat man).

I'm in zone 5b, and I winter the normal form of Chinese elm simply on the ground. No added protection from our typical -17 F for a night or two in winter. So given you are in zone 6, the 'Seiju' should be hardy without necessarily having to bring it into a shelter for winter. Just mulch it in on the ground. Which mean winter storage issues should not limit the size you choose.

My natural inclination is to use as much of the tree as possible when I design a tree, I'm not getting any younger, so drastic chops to just a stub don't excite me. Though with 'Seiju', it grows fast enough that you can rebuild something nice in as little as 5 to 10 years.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Maybe he has me on ignore. All I know is this is the second time recently I've bothered to make a virt of someone's tree and got no response. Not even a "that's not really what I want to do with the tree, but thanks for taking the time". I think this must be the universe's way of telling me it's not worth the effort. People wonder why many threads get few if any responses...

could be, maybe he was too focused on responding to Forsoothe.

 

[Hartinez]

could be, maybe he was too focused on responding to Forsoothe.

This

 

[JonW]

Maybe he has me on ignore. All I know is this is the second time recently I've bothered to make a virt of someone's tree and got no response. Not even a "that's not really what I want to do with the tree, but thanks for taking the time". I think this must be the universe's way of telling me it's not worth the effort. People wonder why many threads get few if any responses...

Sorry, I was at work, and then tried to make my own and failed to find a software. My apologies for not replying when I finally got back on for a third time. I truly do appreciate your input! It is in the direction I'm considering but not exactly the same as I think I would have gone. Helpful to see your thoughts