Limber Pine Development

[BeebsBonsai]

Hello all (I hope the Spring growing season is going well),

I have a limber pine that is yet another bare-bones tree (ohh the woes of low-budget Bonsai buying). It is actually a limber pine grafted onto a black pine base. Anyway, this tree is early in it's development cycle and I am trying to encourage back-budding. I have watched Ryan Neil give a talk on white pine development on a youtube video. In it, he says that you will almost never be able to get back budding on a white pine without cutting off a large portion of vigorously grown candles. He then runs through the cycle of growth you need to encourage before back-budding will occur.
At the crux of this discussion, he says that after you prepare the tree properly by letting it grow long apical candles, you come in and remove the candles (Always leaving a few sets of needles so you don't kill the tip), in Early June, and the pine will back-bud along the branch.
See attached pictures. Do you think this growing season is the right time to do this? Or should I wait one more year to perform the operation? You can see in the photos that this year's candle extension is massive. Where one was cut at the tip, three have extended. They are now about 5 inches long. I have fertilized properly and have been watering perfectly. The soil of this tree is perfect for my watering timing ability. So it is strong, I just don't know if it is strong enough to promote that back-budding.

(Please excuse the terrible raffia application. It was my first time using it and now I know I didn't even have to. One of those rookie mistakes.) I am going for the Fukinagashi (Windswept) Style with this one.

Thanks for any input,
Beebs

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

First question, where on the trunk is the graft union? Your rafia is hiding the trunk. Even completely healed, the graft union will always be a weak point, never wire across a graft, any flexing or bending across the graft union risks breaking the graft. Only very experienced will risk this.

Second, how long ago was it grafted? It takes 5 to 10 years for a graft to heal completely. The first 3 years the tree should be protected from winter freezing. Water expands as it freezes to ice, water in the graft union can separate scion from understock. During the first 3 years, the scion should be encouraged to grow vigorously to build wood to heal graft.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

How many years will needles be retained on a Limber pine? For many white pine species 18 months to 3 years is normal. If a limber pine back buds, it will normally be in an area that still has needles.

Estimate the age of the needles where you want back budding to occur. This will tell you when you "use by" date will be, meaning when you need to force back budding by.

My inclination is to heal graft more quickly, I would leave it alone for 2 to 5 years depending on how large a tree you want. If you get the tree vigorous and heathy, it will back bud on it's own.

But if you want a short tree and need branches where the oldest needles are, candle prune this year, knowing you are stressing a weak tree.

Warning, I live in northern suburbs of Chicago, JBP roots are not reliably winter hardy here. Some years yes, but every 5 years or so we get too cold for JBP. So even though limber pine is very cold hardy, it won't survive if the JBP roots get killed.

 

[BeebsBonsai]

First question, where on the trunk is the graft union? Your rafia is hiding the trunk. Even completely healed, the graft union will always be a weak point, never wire across a graft, any flexing or bending across the graft union risks breaking the graft. Only very experienced will risk this.

Second, how long ago was it grafted? It takes 5 to 10 years for a graft to heal completely. The first 3 years the tree should be protected from winter freezing. Water expands as it freezes to ice, water in the graft union can separate scion from understock. During the first 3 years, the scion should be encouraged to grow vigorously to build wood to heal graft.

Leo, first off, glad to see someone else from Illinois on here. I live near Orland Park in the south suburbs. Now, lets answer those questions.

1.) The graft union is where you see that piece of aluminum along the trunk. I am less than a year in and read a bunch that aluminum tape can heal areas of the tree you want healing on much quicker. I have had mixed reviews since then. So, the graft is no more than two inches above soil level.

2.) I bought this from BC Bonsai and Jim, I believe his name was, the owner, told me that the graft was 7 years old. You can still see where it took place, but there is no indication that it didn't heal over. I will respond to the questions in your second post in a reply to that post, but feel free to include all responses below that. I just want to keep the different questions separate for you.

Maybe we'll run into each other at the Midwest Bonsai Society show in August.

 

[BeebsBonsai]

How many years will needles be retained on a Limber pine? For many white pine species 18 months to 3 years is normal. If a limber pine back buds, it will normally be in an area that still has needles.

Estimate the age of the needles where you want back budding to occur. This will tell you when you "use by" date will be, meaning when you need to force back budding by.

My inclination is to heal graft more quickly, I would leave it alone for 2 to 5 years depending on how large a tree you want. If you get the tree vigorous and heathy, it will back bud on it's own.

But if you want a short tree and need branches where the oldest needles are, candle prune this year, knowing you are stressing a weak tree.

Warning, I live in northern suburbs of Chicago, JBP roots are not reliably winter hardy here. Some years yes, but every 5 years or so we get too cold for JBP. So even though limber pine is very cold hardy, it won't survive if the JBP roots get killed.

Leo,

From everything I have read, needles are retained for 3 years, just as you said. However, this tree seems like it might be an exception to that rule, because there were, and still are, needles halfway down the "trunk." They lead me to believe that the needles on this tree can stay for up to 5 years. Just by comparing it's current candle length to the sections of the tree there are needles on.

I definitely need to keep this tree not too much longer than it already is, at least in the near future. I simply don't have the space for the three foot tree I would get if I used the current apex as my second or third branch location. So I need to produce back-budding.

Stressing a weak tree? I assume you mean this tree looks stressed because of the sparse foliage, which I agree it is very sparse. However, the growth the tree responded with this spring leads me to believe it is much stronger than the foliage mass would have you believe.

Thank you for the warning. What I did this winter with this tree, was to keep it in an unheated attached garage. It responded fine to that treatment. My garage never gets below about 31-33 degrees, even in the coldest part of winter. As an added layer, this year I will be purchasing some simple plastic/neoprene covers and constructing a little hut around them on the shelf so that when the garage opens they aren't subjected to freezing winds. I also always keep a plastic bag around the pot and tied off at the trunk to protect the tree roots from some of the cold temps.

I know this post is long, but I wanted to be sure I answered everything and responded properly with my follow ups. Do you think it would be wise to perform this operation, say, in a week?

Beebs

 

[augustine]

Ryan Neil also says that shoots = roots and that a pine's vigor comes from its root system. I wouldn't do anything but give fert and sun this year. Let it grow more foliage and get vigorous.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Ah, 7 years, that graft should be healed enough that the tree should be ready for work, this year if you want. I know Jim, they sell some decent trees. They start with good quality young pre-bonsai, let it grow. Because they are busy, they don't do a lot of training, but their prices are quite reasonable. A tree from them is often older than one might think, because they let them grow in the field.

I'm not sure the tree read the book that says needles should only last 3 years. There's individual variation on this. The bristlecone pines are considered white pines and they keep needles upwards of 30 years. There may be a range for how long limber pines keep theirs.

Photos can be deceiving, if you feel it's got good vigor, go with your plan. You should start candle, or shoot pruning this year.

Go for it.

 

[PiñonJ]

I don't know if there are nuances to Limber Pine, but Ryan's current practice with single-flush pines is to fertilize heavily to produce as much photosynthetic surface area as possible, wich then stimulates back-budding. He doesn't candle prune to stimulate back-budding.

 

[Potawatomi13]

I don't know if there are nuances to Limber Pine, but Ryan's current practice with single-flush pines is to fertilize heavily to produce as much photosynthetic surface area as possible, wich then stimulates back-budding. He doesn't candle prune to stimulate back-budding.

Per Ryan this is his practice for Ponderosas but is it same story for all other single flush pines?

 

[PiñonJ]

Per Ryan this is his practice for Ponderosas but is it same story for all other single flush pines?

As far as I know, but hopefully, there'll be a whole live stream dedicated to this soon!

 

[MichaelS]

BB,
Before you do anything else, I would strongly advise you to cut off the wire you have on it and re-wire it. (at the appropriate time of year!)
The wire you have on it at the moment won't do much. You need heavier wires and probably two of them. You also need to wire with the coils at more or less 45 degrees to the branch . You're way too steep and therefore will not have any holding power and the branch will be soon strangled.
Go clockwise or anti-clockwise depending on which way you are moving the branch.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Yes, I neglected to mention the wire, and the aluminum foil, @MichaelS is right, take the wire off, and the aluminum foil. Re-wire after the beginning of November, late autumn or over winter.

Your graft union is 7 years old, healed beyond the point of needing any kind of wound care. Sealing wounds is useful only the first months a wound was created.

 

[BeebsBonsai]

Ah, 7 years, that graft should be healed enough that the tree should be ready for work, this year if you want. I know Jim, they sell some decent trees. They start with good quality young pre-bonsai, let it grow. Because they are busy, they don't do a lot of training, but their prices are quite reasonable. A tree from them is often older than one might think, because they let them grow in the field.

I'm not sure the tree read the book that says needles should only last 3 years. There's individual variation on this. The bristlecone pines are considered white pines and they keep needles upwards of 30 years. There may be a range for how long limber pines keep theirs.

Photos can be deceiving, if you feel it's got good vigor, go with your plan. You should start candle, or shoot pruning this year.

Go for it.

The tree had a pretty decent case of diasthroma (I don't know if I spelled that right). The needle blight with the black spot. I made sure to treat it until the sheaths opened so that it didn't get it this year, and so far it's going great. No signs of it on all the new growth. The graft scar is still very visible. I don't expect that to change too soon, because of the growth rate of limber and their bark being so different from black pines.

I am still new to the hobby, so the prices seemed relatively fair, but I still couldn't afford most. I like The Hidden Gardens a whole bunch. I have had nothing but good trees from them. Starters mostly, but very fair in pricing. I need to visit Jim again now that he will have all of his stuff out on his benches.

 

[BeebsBonsai]

BB,
Before you do anything else, I would strongly advise you to cut off the wire you have on it and re-wire it. (at the appropriate time of year!)
The wire you have on it at the moment won't do much. You need heavier wires and probably two of them. You also need to wire with the coils at more or less 45 degrees to the branch . You're way too steep and therefore will not have any holding power and the branch will be soon strangled.
Go clockwise or anti-clockwise depending on which way you are moving the branch.

View attachment 148574

Michael,

I wasn't notified when you responded. Thanks for the detail. This was my first foray into copper wire, so I had some difficulty at the time. Also my first foray into raffia. I did terribly on it. I haven't noticed any ill-effects of the wire thus far. You can see a touch of light, and I mean just barely, in most of the coils, so I don't know if it is tight enough for strangulation. Everything I have read on limbers says it will take 2-3 years for wire to effect any hold on them. I will be attempting to remove the foil soon. I just have to get up the courage. It is very strong, industrial grade actually. I don't want to pull bark off of the union, so I want to wait until it starts to bust or peel off. I know now that i can't really do that, but if it starts to do anything to the union I will stop pulling it off and wait.

I thought it was closer to 45 than it actually is when I did it. Its at about 60 I think. Do you guys have any sources of cheaper copper wire? It's so damn expensive!

Thanks for the input!

Beebs

 

[BeebsBonsai]

I don't know if there are nuances to Limber Pine, but Ryan's current practice with single-flush pines is to fertilize heavily to produce as much photosynthetic surface area as possible, wich then stimulates back-budding. He doesn't candle prune to stimulate back-budding.

See link below from Willowbog, he talks about exactly what I am trying to do with this tree.

I was using this as my reference. Has his opinion changed since?

 

[PiñonJ]

I was using this as my reference. Has his opinion changed since?

No, he's saying exactly the same thing. I think you're just missing some important details. First of all, listen carefully to what he's saying about back budding. You fertilize heavily to support production of photosynthetic surface area the first year in development. This increases the traffic of resources in the vascular system and that's what stimulates back budding, NOT pruning. The following year, IF you have the back buds that you wanted, you let the candles elongate and, when the needles have hardened off, you prune the new shoot back to no less than a couple of needle pairs. That removes the auxin suppression and allows the back buds to open. The techniques for refinement are different and at that point they also differ slightly between short needle and long needle pines. By the way, you don't need the raffia.