Live oak skeleton

[rockm]

A couple of shots of the oak as of May 9.

It's filling in pretty strongly. I'm going to have to begin cutting back some of the stronger shoots in a week or so as they harden off.

By the way, the small tree in the middle (on the back shelf) is also another escarpment live oak that I'm working into a more natural "Texas live oak" style. It's not that far along and it's considerably smaller than the big 'un. I've had trouble with overwintering the small one. Extreme cold forced it to drop all its limbs every winter for years, forcing me to start from scratch every spring. A friend allowed me to keep it in a frost free space this winter and retained the limbs it pushed last spring.

 

[R_F]

Good Look'n tree Rock!

 

[jk_lewis]

I'd rather see a live oak (I assume Quercus virginiana) without a pointy top and in the wide, spreading form that is so common along the eastern Coastal plain. his has a very nice base, and i think could be transformed into a more typical shape without too much effort.

A quick and dirty virt . . . actually, I'd like to see it a LOT wider; some of the lovliest Q. virginiana are three times as wide as they are tall.

 

[rockm]

"spreading form that is so common along the eastern Coastal plain. his has a very nice base, and i think could be transformed into a more typical shape without too much effort."

Being that this isn't a coast live oak, but an escarpment live oak common to the upland prairies in Texas, the coastal form isn't really appropriate for it -- if things come down to regional preferences.

As for the trunk being transformed "easily" Nah, not really .

To accomplish what you've pictured would require another eight or nine years and lopping off half the apex that has been a decade in the making. As for a wider "oakier" image, that was my idea also -- at first--see the "before picture." The branches now on the tree took a very long time to thicken to a believable diameter to within a foot of the tree. The gangly end branching showed no signs of thickening after a decade of allowing them to grow. They just got longer, not much thicker.

The current design really seems to irritate "oak" people (California and Southern alike), but not me, even though I'm a fan of Southern live oaks and understand how they grow and develop in nature.

This trunk was not collected with such a style in mind. The collector was a Native Texan who lived near Austin -- prime escarpment live oak territory. He well understood the species and its habits. He chose the existing branching and selected the apex it has now in 1992 or so. I have worked from his ideas. The trunk is the main feature of this particular tree, not the silhouette. A wider image obscures and minimizes the trunk--compare the before gangly branching with the edited form. The trunk is more "there" in the edited form.

To be blunt I have not seen another live oak bonsai with such a trunk. I have seen telephone pole straight trunks carved down to nothing and trunks that have no movement in the bottom third and absolutely NO spreading multi-stemmed trunks that are usually pictured as prime examples of southern live oak. If you find one, grab it...

In the end and -- believe me--after considerable thought, I think it would be a shame to put this particular tree in a specific category just because its species somehow "requires it" to be acceptable as a bonsai...

 

[catfish chapstick]

wow rockm, thats one fine tree. i love its form. picture probably does no justice.

 

[rockm]

Yeah,it's funny, but trees always look better in person than in photos, however photos also tend to lay bare big glaring faults that you don't really see in person. That's kind of what drove me over the edge with this redesign. The gangly branching I saw in photo was an obvious problem and something I didn't realy notice much in person...

Not to be too hard on Jim (JKL). I understand the desire for a true live oak form. Spreading southern live oaks are spectacular. I'm hoping there are other Southern live oak bonsai are out there that are "true" to form. I've only seen maybe 8 or 9 other live oak bonsai, though. I'm always surprised Texans and Okalhomans aren't using this species more. It is widely grown in landscape nurseries in big metro areas in Texas for not a lot of money. The smaller tree in the background was purchased for $10 at a roadside lanscaping nursery in Garland a few years ago...

 

[jk_lewis]

Being that this isn't a coast live oak, but an escarpment live oak common to the upland prairies in Texas, the coastal form isn't really appropriate for it -- if things come down to regional preferences.

The curse of the common name strikes again. We oughta ban them.

 

[jk_lewis]

Being that this isn't a coast live oak, but an escarpment live oak common to the upland prairies in Texas, the coastal form isn't really appropriate for it -- if things come down to regional preferences.

The curse of the common name strikes again. We oughta ban them.

 

[rockm]

Jim, technically Escarpment live oak is quercus virginiana "fusiformis" a distinct subspecies of the coastal form. Some are saying it is a separate species. In any case, it's more cold hardy, drought tolerant and generally tougher than the main species along the coast. In some places it looks almost exactly like the coastal form, in others it can be a sparser, windblown thing.

This particular tree was collected in Salado, Texas in a tangle of scrub on a piece of rangeland.

 

[jferrier]

Awesome tree! I had been thinking of trying one of these a while ago, since the large ones here are so magnificent. I let someone talk me out of it on another forum because he thought they didn't develop well. Now I wish I had gotten one. Time to start looking!

 

[rockm]

JFerrier,

You are in prime live oak territory . They are EXTREMELY adaptable to bonsai culture. This one has been in a container continuously since 1992. I revived it after getting it 1998 or so, as it had not been repotted since it was collected. Once the old mucky soil was broken up and removed completely over a couple of years, the tree rebounded extremely vigorously.

I've been trying to get my hands on another larger one for a long time. They can be bought at landscape nurseries in the metroplex pretty easily, topped and repotted. They can also be collected, but that can be a bit tricky according to the person that dug this one--has to do with root mass, as usual (He told me that if a live oak drops ALL of its leaves in the days immediatel after collection, it will mostly likely live. It it retains the leaves, it dies...)

Most of the "bonsai" Texas live oak stock I've seen is either very uninteresting, vastly overpriced, or both. It doesn't have to be so. This species is "farmed" by nurseries in Texas in graded containers...Find a landscape nursery that sells to the public and you might find some decent candidates...

These are the only other photos of Escarpment live oak bonsai I've seen on the web. I don't know if the place that was selling them is still around:
http://bonsaisuperstore.com/images/oak/live-oak-bonsai-002-01-525.jpg
http://bonsaisuperstore.com/images/oak/live-oak-bonsai-001-575.jpg

FWIW, my parents have a place out in Tyler in the Piney Woods. Live oak is onely one of dozens of species out that way that can be used (but aren't very much) for bonsai. I'd REALLY like to get a willow oak from out there. Apparently they have hybridized, perhaps with live oak, as they remain green into Feb. and the leaves are sometimes very similar to local live oak.

 

[jferrier]

JFerrier,

You are in prime live oak territory . They are EXTREMELY adaptable to bonsai culture. This one has been in a container continuously since 1992 in 1998 or so. I revived it after getting it, as it had not been repotted since it was collected. Once the old mucky soil was broken up and removed completely over a couple of years, the tree rebounded extremely vigorously.

I've been trying to get my hands on another larger one for a long time. They can be bought at landscape nurseries in the metroplex pretty easily, topped and repotted. They can also be collected, but that can be a bit tricky according to the person that dug this one--has to do with root mass, as usual (He told me that if a live oak drops ALL of its leaves in the days immediatel after collection, it will mostly likely live. It it retains the leaves, it dies...)

Most of the "bonsai" Texas live oak stock I've seen is either very uninteresting, vastly overpriced, or both. It doesn't have to be so. This species is "farmed" by nurseries in Texas in graded containers...Find a landscape nursery that sells to the public and you might find some decent candidates...

These are the only other photos of Escarpment live oak bonsai I've seen on the web. I don't know if the place that was selling them is still around:
http://bonsaisuperstore.com/images/oak/live-oak-bonsai-002-01-525.jpg
http://bonsaisuperstore.com/images/oak/live-oak-bonsai-001-575.jpg

FWIW, my parents have a place out in Tyler in the Piney Woods. Live oak is onely one of dozens of species out that way that can be used (but aren't very much) for bonsai. I'd REALLY like to get a willow oak from out there. Apparently they have hybridized, perhaps with live oak, as they remain green into Feb. and the leaves are sometimes very similar to local live oak.

Yeah I can see about a dozen huge old ones from my window right now. I have access to a property full of cedar elms, but no live oaks. But most nurseries here always have some available, so I'm going to be getting one very soon. I can grab one for you if you wish. I could take some pics before I buy and could cut some of the top off so it could be mailed. Just let me know.
Being an evergreen, do you know when these guys should be repotted?

 

[rockm]

Repotting for mine is the same for most any other decidous tree-when new buds are moving (live oaks are deciduous, they just drop most of their leaves in the springtime as new growth pushes). Around here in Va. that's usually in late March. I keep the tree in a frost free greenhouse over the winter -- just in case the winter is a brutal one. It is pretty winter hardy here.

Sure, email me a photo of the stuff you see in the nurseries. It's a bit late to do much work on them for me anyway, so I may have to take a rain check on the tree this year...Doesn't mean next spring is out of the question though.

 

[oakbonsai]

Hi rockm,

I'm new to Bonsai Nut and just saw your posts on the live oak. It is really nice. I am an oak lover but new at bonsai and am trying to work on some oaks. For some reason, very few members of our society have oak bonsais.
From your posts, it seems you have defoliated the tree. If so, could you tell me when you do it and how completely you do it. I have a friend in Ca. that grows Coastal live oaks, q. agrifolia and in order to get new budding he cuts half the leaf off. Then he gets new shoots and smaller leaves. Does you live oak get smaller leaves after you defoliate?

I know your oak was a yamadori, but I love oaks and am determined to bonsai them so any info you can share would really be appreciated.

oakbonsai

 

[rockm]

The California folk don't use this species. They use their own species native to the west. This species I'm working with (Quercus Virginiana) is native to the south and southeast and Gulf of Mexico. It is not the same in growth habits and climate as western oaks. It is also rarer in bonsai than the California species.

I don't defoliate the tree. The species drops its leaves in the spring naturally. I have seen some Quercus Virginiana that have been defoliated. It can be done with good results...Cutting leaves in half is a gentler way of defoliation. (BTW-- defoliation is NOT done to get smaller leaves, although that is SOMETIMES a side-benefit. With some eastern forest oaks, like white oak, pin oak and the like, it can also result in LARGER leaves. In general, defoliation is done to increase branch ramification--twigginess. Defoliation pushes resting leaf buds to open on parts of the tree closer in towards the trunk.)

I don't defoliate this tree because I just don't want to . Defoliation takes a toll on trees. Not that this species isn't vigorous, but I don't want to push it that hard. I have found that leaves reduce pretty well with sun exposure. It remains in full sun (in Virginia) from March until October. Leaves reduce by half or more --from about five inches to two and a half, although when it's in a growth spurt, it will put out "normal" sized leaves. I usually remove all of those.

Cutting leaves in half is a gentler way of defoliation. If I were to defoliate this one, I'd completely remove all the leaves from the top half (cutting the leaf's petiole --the stem that connects it to the branch) and cut the remainder on the lower branches in half. It, like many oaks, is very apically dominant. Since the leaves on this species have very short stems, cutting them is a real pain in the butt

You don't say where you live, but if it's in California, you have a wealth of oak species to work with and a lot of local experience to draw from. My advice with a southern species may not apply with oak species out there.

If you are in the eastern U.S. you are a pioneer of sorts. There are even fewer oak bonsai around these parts, even though we do have some very good species to work with. No one does bonsai with them because they've been told it can't be done. IMO it can be done, IF you work with a worthwhile species and with worthwhile material. Willow oak (Quercus phellos) is one of those workable species. It's extremely common and hardy. If you collect from the wild they're relatively easy to dig as they tend to have a shallow root masses. Its leaves are also on the smaller side to start with and can reduce. Pin oak (quercus pallustris) is another workable species, although leaves don't reduce that much. The white oaks and red oaks are a bit more problematic. White oaks are true forest giants and usually come with a massive anchor root that it doesn't like fooled with. Same for red oak...Leaves on both are pretty large.

 

[oakbonsai]

Thanks for the reply, rock. I'm sorry I failed to mention I'm from Houston, TX. I am working on some 3-5 year old, q. virginianas, a 3 year old q. shumardii (red oak) and a few cork and valley oaks a friend sent me acorns from CA. He's in the San Fran Bonsai society and they do a lot of oak bonsais. Particularly coastal live oaks and cork oaks. both have small leaves and adapt well to bonsai.
I agree with you that defoliation will ramify the tree, but in the instances I have used it on other trees, the new leaves have been smaller. I'll try mine and see what happens. If you were to defoliate and you said you would do it partially(carefully), what time of the year would you try it. Here, with the heat, trees stop growing in July - Sept.

Amother question on your live oak is, how well does it backbud. I have a 40 year old liave oak in my front yard and it is constantly budding from the rough trunk but how reliable is it on the branches. Also, how would you recommend thickening the branches, especially the lower ones since these trees are apically domonant. Do you know of any tricks?

 

[rockm]

Do not take advice on how to grow Q. Virginiana from west coast growers. They are working with completely different species. Also, if you're in Houston and your Q. Virginiana were obtained locally, you're probably working with Q. Virginiana "Fusiformis" or simply Q. Fusiformis, which is a subspecies, although it is sometimes classfied as a separate species called escarpment live oak. It's a little more cold hardy and drought tolerant than the main Q. Virginiana species.

If I were to defoliate, I would have done in back at the beginning of June, given that the species can enter a summer dormancy (which isn't unnusual for a lot of trees in the Southern part of the country--heat can stop them for a while). Alternatively, since you have a longer growing season than me, you might consider defoliation at the end of month. However, you will have to be vigilant come autumn for low temps.

This species backbuds extremely well, provided you're cutting into old wood. Pinching the perimeter growth won't do all that much in the way of new shoots.

Thickening lower branches in a container isn't easy with this species. I've only seen minimal thickening on the lower branches on mine in the last ten years. To get them to thicken considerably requires in-ground development, allowing uncontrolled growth, while keeping the top in check.

 

[wlambeth]

you have the makings of a masterpiece!

 

[oakbonsai]

I'll look into checking which variety of oak I have; I have heard of Q. fusiformis. Have you ever tried to air layer a live oak? I tried it last year on a pretty large branch - 4" diam., already barked out and all, but I had trouble with squirrels tearing up the air layer. I even wrapped it with wire mesh but they hept tearing at it (after the moisture I'm sure). I'm trying to decide if it's worth another try, this time on a smaller branch not totally barked out.

 

[rockm]

I've not tried to air layer one, so I don't know how it would perform.