Mirai full court press on media

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
Messages
14,297
Reaction score
22,515
Location
Fairfax Va.
USDA Zone
7

Eric Group

Masterpiece
Messages
4,554
Reaction score
4,855
Location
Columbia, SC
It seems some people- not talking about you @rockm - have a real negative attitude about Ryan. I don't know the guy, I don't necessarily feel drawn to the massive deadwood conifer styles he seems to creat most often.. But I have nothing but admiration for the guy personally. He saw what he wanted in life- an apprenticeship with one of the greatest Bonsai masters in Japan- and he went and got it.. He had a vision for creating an Omiya inspired Bonsai Village in Oregon and he and a few others went and made it happen. He wanted to create the best Bonsai show in America and made that happen too... I just feel like there are a lot of "haters" that pop up when he is mentioned and it is sad to see. If we all worked so hard to advance this art form in America, imagine what we could achieve! Some say they don't care about Bonsai becoming more "popular" or main stream in America, but they is a short sighted notion to me. If we want this to continue for the long term we need people like Ryan to take the reigns and MAKE STUFF HAPPEN. We need people able and willing to get this kind of press, we need people interested in finding AMERICAN Bonsai- trees and styles that work well here... We need people like Ryan to drive it into the future and help it spread or this little "hobby" we all enjoy will fall further into obscurity..
JMHO
 

jcrossett

Chumono
Messages
550
Reaction score
361
Location
Joppa Maryland.
Anybody who takes a pic with a tree a bonsai and graffiti is good with me!

Sorce
I have watched alot of Ryan's lectures on YouTube and I might stay he's a great teacher and does great work In my eyes. I think people hate on him because of him coming from a wealthy family. " Jealousy "
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,913
Reaction score
45,597
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2

Yeah...I did.t want to say it.

I wouldn't know if he had a wealthy family.....

But I know people have to be jealous of the drive and determination.
Hell....I am!

Let's face it....we'd all rather "play with trees" for a living....
Day jobs suck!

It's pretty clear Ryan works really Fucking hard!
Hence, "play with trees".

Treat it like a business, and succeed.

His GO is rare.

People hate that.

Sorce
 
Messages
3,554
Reaction score
4,269
I like Ryan and his work. I also like and appreciate all that he has done and is continuing to do for American Bonsai.

I am not jealous at all.. just think that perhaps "American Bonsai" should actually live up to the name... and actually be representative of all the folks in America, doing bonsai. I don't think this is too much to ask, do you?

I mean, where I come from... we all don't work on Junipers and pines, and we sure a shit don't hang our skateboards on the wall as art, we actually ride them... Whether or not any of the folks I know doing "American Bonsai" actually get any recognition or not... it does not mean I nor anyone else I know, do not hold the same goal of making the scene great. We all are contributing our part... to be honest, I can't think of anyone who wakes up in the morning and says, "wouldn't it be awesome if the American Bonsai scene sucked!" Can you?
 
Last edited:

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,913
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
I have watched alot of Ryan's lectures on YouTube and I might stay he's a great teacher and does great work In my eyes. I think people hate on him because of him coming from a wealthy family. " Jealousy "

I think he attracts the negative beccause human nature tends to resent accomplishments that they themselves are not capable of. This seems to be really obvious with those who pursue bonsai.

It seems to be OK with you as long as you play the game, just don't rock the boat and make those who consider themselves as important to feel challenged. Once you cross that line it becomes personal.
 
Last edited:

Eric Group

Masterpiece
Messages
4,554
Reaction score
4,855
Location
Columbia, SC
I like Ryan and his work. I also like and appreciate all that he has done and is continuing to do for American Bonsai.

I am not jealous at all.. just think that perhaps "American Bonsai" should actually live up to the name... and actually be representative of all the folks in America, doing bonsai. I don't think this is too much to ask, do you?

I mean, where I come from... we all don't work on Junipers and pines, and we sure a shit don't hang our skateboards on the wall as art, we actually ride them... Whether or not any of the folks I know doing "American Bonsai" actually get any recognition or not... it does not mean I nor anyone else I know, do not hold the same goal of making the scene great. We all are contributing our part... to be honest, I can't think of anyone who wakes up in the morning and says, "wouldn't it be awesome if the American Bonsai scene sucked!" Can you?
just think that perhaps "American Bonsai" should actually live up to the name... and actually be representative of all the folks in America, doing bonsai. I don't think this is too much to ask, do you?

So... I am just thinking out loud, not arguing or disagreeing or demeaning your opinion, in the most respectful way possible- How would one person go about representing all the folks in America who do Bonsai? Yes, that seems to me to be way too much to ask.

I have seen your posts on this subject in the past Stacy and it seems clear you are taking offense to him using the term American Bonsai because... Why? Because he doesn't do a bunch of tropicals? I think Bonsai, like any art form, is dramatically different from one region to another and even from one artist to another within very close proximity. That is what makes it great, interesting, dynamic, adaptive... It should not be offensive or an affront to people who like to do Tropicals in America that Ryan prefers to do his American Bonsai primarily with Conifers in the Pacific NW. Nor is it- I am sure- any concern to him that you may want to call your trees "American Bonsai" while you do a lot with tropicals (and other stuff, I know) in South Florida... It is all Bonsai, right? Is it American Bonsai? ANY OF IT? By your requirements, no. If you have to somehow be representative of all the folks in America doing Bonsai? Nobody is or CAN do that... Rembrandt was not representative of Picasso.. Does that mean neither was a painter? Ford and Chevy make different cars are they thus not making American Automobiles because they are not representative of each other?

I think all that Ryan is trying to do- based off what I have read and seen him say in interviews- is help advance Bonsai in America, show people it does not have to be the same old traditional Japanese way.. It doesn't mean he is saying "do exactly what I am doing and what I think of as American Bonsai, or you are not doing it right"... He has his vision, you clearly have your own, and every artist between Florida and Oregon- I HOPE- has their own unique ideas and vision... Doesn't make anyone is right or wrong, just different and in the end, isn't that what America has kind of been about front he start? Accepting and even celebrating and embracing our differences? You make some good stuff Stacy, Ryan makes some amazing stuff of his own- your trees may be quite different but I wouldn't fault either of you for calling it American Bonsai... But that is just my take! Hope that makes a little bit of sense... :)
 
Messages
3,554
Reaction score
4,269
just think that perhaps "American Bonsai" should actually live up to the name... and actually be representative of all the folks in America, doing bonsai. I don't think this is too much to ask, do you?

So... I am just thinking out loud, not arguing or disagreeing or demeaning your opinion, in the most respectful way possible- How would one person go about representing all the folks in America who do Bonsai? Yes, that seems to me to be way too much to ask.

I have seen your posts on this subject in the past Stacy and it seems clear you are taking offense to him using the term American Bonsai because... Why? Because he doesn't do a bunch of tropicals? I think Bonsai, like any art form, is dramatically different from one region to another and even from one artist to another within very close proximity. That is what makes it great, interesting, dynamic, adaptive... It should not be offensive or an affront to people who like to do Tropicals in America that Ryan prefers to do his American Bonsai primarily with Conifers in the Pacific NW. Nor is it- I am sure- any concern to him that you may want to call your trees "American Bonsai" while you do a lot with tropicals (and other stuff, I know) in South Florida... It is all Bonsai, right? Is it American Bonsai? ANY OF IT? By your requirements, no. If you have to somehow be representative of all the folks in America doing Bonsai? Nobody is or CAN do that... Rembrandt was not representative of Picasso.. Does that mean neither was a painter? Ford and Chevy make different cars are they thus not making American Automobiles because they are not representative of each other?

I think all that Ryan is trying to do- based off what I have read and seen him say in interviews- is help advance Bonsai in America, show people it does not have to be the same old traditional Japanese way.. It doesn't mean he is saying "do exactly what I am doing and what I think of as American Bonsai, or you are not doing it right"... He has his vision, you clearly have your own, and every artist between Florida and Oregon- I HOPE- has their own unique ideas and vision... Doesn't make anyone is right or wrong, just different and in the end, isn't that what America has kind of been about front he start? Accepting and even celebrating and embracing our differences? You make some good stuff Stacy, Ryan makes some amazing stuff of his own- your trees may be quite different but I wouldn't fault either of you for calling it American Bonsai... But that is just my take! Hope that makes a little bit of sense... :)
I agree... I as I have said I am not offended by Ryan or what he is doing. I have no personal issue with him, I don't even know him...

As far as the term "American Bonsai" to be honest it is pretty silly. And really not necessary. I think everyone in America can quite literally do Bonsai without us all having to try and define it! To each there own... if someone wants to do what ever and work on whatever, then cool!

However, this is not what is happening is it? And let's not forget it wasn't I nor thousands of others doing bonsai in the states that decided to try and define it, nor begin to try and voice opinions on where or perhaps where not it should go...

When I open up threads here regarding the discussion, read blogs and pieces shared on FB and people's voices and opinions, it's as if the sky all of a sudden opened up and now everyone has a path to glory! Which, ok... fine... but, perhaps it is me, but what we're folks doing before this great enlightenment?

I mean, was there not anyone else pushing a path forward to advance the scene? Do we all really have to run out and get a tree from Randy Night to be a part of this great movement? Not trying to obviously insult anyone... or just be a "hater"...

Just merely asking a question, as well as voicing an opinion, that I think it is awesome what is happening in Seattle... yet at the same time, I see awesome stuff all around happening... yet, only a small percentage of what is happening is being talked about, as well as being brought to the table of being representative of, if we are to now define it... "American Bonsai" How come?

I think the answer lies less with the concept of jealousy, and instead perhaps more with the notion that the facts are, America has lots of diversity... People are looking around at what they are doing, and asking the simple question of... if they are American, doing bonsai why is it they feel they are not part of what we are all trying to achieve?

I am all for one trying to take the reigns as you have said, someone who has a voice, who can yell from the roof tops... Let's all get together and play our part and make the freaking scene the best it can be, let's pull together our diversity... what in my opinion makes America great, and let's get things done... but, this is not what seems to be happening, at least not in my opinion, as well as others I am sure... and because someone says hey what's up with that... all of a sudden they are just "haters"... about the dumbest thing I ever heard.

What is being missed is that, I think "everyone" should have a voice. You like and appreciate Ryan... that awesome! I like his work too! I also like other people's as well, and even though I may not agree with Ryan on everything, I should at least be able to say, I don't agree with him here... Right? Or is this not allowed in the new American Bonsai movement?
 

Eric Group

Masterpiece
Messages
4,554
Reaction score
4,855
Location
Columbia, SC
I agree... I as I have said I am not offended by Ryan or what he is doing. I have no personal issue with him, I don't even know him...

As far as the term "American Bonsai" to be honest it is pretty silly. And really not necessary. I think everyone in America can quite literally do Bonsai without us all having to try and define it! To each there own... if someone wants to do what ever and work on whatever, then cool!

However, this is not what is happening is it? And let's not forget it wasn't I nor thousands of others doing bonsai in the states that decided to try and define it, nor begin to try and voice opinions on where or perhaps where not it should go...

When I open up threads here regarding the discussion, read blogs and pieces shared on FB and people's voices and opinions, it's as if the sky all of a sudden opened up and now everyone has a path to glory! Which, ok... fine... but, perhaps it is me, but what we're folks doing before this great enlightenment?

I mean, was there not anyone else pushing a path forward to advance the scene? Do we all really have to run out and get a tree from Randy Night to be a part of this great movement? Not trying to obviously insult anyone... or just be a "hater"...

Just merely asking a question, as well as voicing an opinion, that I think it is awesome what is happening in Seattle... yet at the same time, I see awesome stuff all around happening... yet, only a small percentage of what is happening is being talked about, as well as being brought to the table of being representative of, if we are to now define it... "American Bonsai" How come?

I think the answer lies less with the concept of jealousy, and instead perhaps more with the notion that the facts are, America has lots of diversity... People are looking around at what they are doing, and asking the simple question of... if they are American, doing bonsai why is it they feel they are not part of what we are all trying to achieve?

I am all for one trying to take the reigns as you have said, someone who has a voice, who can yell from the roof tops... Let's all get together and play our part and make the freaking scene the best it can be, let's pull together our diversity... what in my opinion makes America great, and let's get things done... but, this is not what seems to be happening, at least not in my opinion, as well as others I am sure... and because someone says hey what's up with that... all of a sudden they are just "haters"... about the dumbest thing I ever heard.

What is being missed is that, I think "everyone" should have a voice. You like and appreciate Ryan... that awesome! I like his work too! I also like other people's as well, and even though I may not agree with Ryan on everything, I should at least be able to say, I don't agree with him here... Right? Or is this not allowed in the new American Bonsai movement?
You are certainly entitled to disagree with people, formulate your own opinions... Do your own thing. Nobody- including anyone form the Pacific NW is preventing you from doing that or saying you shouldn't. I think you made my point though- you seem to be implying Ryan and Randy Clark... Are telling people that only their POV is acceptable. Where have you seen any implication of that? In all the blogs, FB articles, interviews I have read about Ryan, Randy, the artisans cup... I have never seen any indication that they are giving that vibe off. It is my opinion that people like yourself who are taking it that way are injecting your own bias into the discussion and that is what I do not understand. Ryan tried to make a great Bonsai show, and says he wants to advance Bonsai in America... And so many have responded to basically say "why is he telling me I am doing Bonsai wrong or that my trees don't matter"...?? Or- "ALL they had in the show was big collected Junipers, so they a re saying anyone not doing that isn't doing American Bonsai"??? That simply isn't the case. In the pics I saw of the Artisan's cup and of Ryan's nursery I have seen many large collected Junipers with lots of deadwood sure, but I have also seen many trees of other varieties and dramatically different styles.

So, I am not saying- NOBODY is saying- you are not entitled to disagree with someone or have your own opinions, but if you are going to take a stand against what Ryan is doing or saying... At least make sure you are right about what what you are rallying against. Has Ryan made any statement for or against varying styles or "diversity" within the American scene? I haven't seen any "rules" or directives put out by anyone, and I have not seen anything that made me feel he or anyone else in that area are against other types of people, trees or shows being part of the American scene. That is what is confusing to me. I would never disparage you for having your own ideas and opinions, but you seem to be projecting some negative stigma on others that I see no evidence for. That is my concern. I agree with your opinion- and think we both are on the same side here- Bonsai, like any art form has room for all different types of creations! Why do you feel Ryan is somehow opposed to this idea? Perhaps I have just not seen the same comments you have.
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,913
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
just think that perhaps "American Bonsai" should actually live up to the name... and actually be representative of all the folks in America, doing bonsai. I don't think this is too much to ask, do you?

So... I am just thinking out loud, not arguing or disagreeing or demeaning your opinion, in the most respectful way possible- How would one person go about representing all the folks in America who do Bonsai? Yes, that seems to me to be way too much to ask.

I have seen your posts on this subject in the past Stacy and it seems clear you are taking offense to him using the term American Bonsai because... Why? Because he doesn't do a bunch of tropicals? I think Bonsai, like any art form, is dramatically different from one region to another and even from one artist to another within very close proximity. That is what makes it great, interesting, dynamic, adaptive... It should not be offensive or an affront to people who like to do Tropicals in America that Ryan prefers to do his American Bonsai primarily with Conifers in the Pacific NW. Nor is it- I am sure- any concern to him that you may want to call your trees "American Bonsai" while you do a lot with tropicals (and other stuff, I know) in South Florida... It is all Bonsai, right? Is it American Bonsai? ANY OF IT? By your requirements, no. If you have to somehow be representative of all the folks in America doing Bonsai? Nobody is or CAN do that... Rembrandt was not representative of Picasso.. Does that mean neither was a painter? Ford and Chevy make different cars are they thus not making American Automobiles because they are not representative of each other?

I think all that Ryan is trying to do- based off what I have read and seen him say in interviews- is help advance Bonsai in America, show people it does not have to be the same old traditional Japanese way.. It doesn't mean he is saying "do exactly what I am doing and what I think of as American Bonsai, or you are not doing it right"... He has his vision, you clearly have your own, and every artist between Florida and Oregon- I HOPE- has their own unique ideas and vision... Doesn't make anyone is right or wrong, just different and in the end, isn't that what America has kind of been about front he start? Accepting and even celebrating and embracing our differences? You make some good stuff Stacy, Ryan makes some amazing stuff of his own- your trees may be quite different but I wouldn't fault either of you for calling it American Bonsai... But that is just my take! Hope that makes a little bit of sense... :)

At present I think the fact that Ryan uses many native American species to create masterpiece, world class bonsai, by anyone's definition is a pretty good definition of American Bonsai. I think in some of the displays I saw, which were made public of his last show, reflected the kind of American individualism within the parameters of the generally understood form of a bonsai tree, to be invigorating. Too often those who try to make the ubiquitous American Bonsai are nothing more than well meaning artists trying to reinvent the wheel---- unsuccessfully. The results are disappointing and vapid. I think Stacey has come up with some artistic and pleasing displays that are more American than Japanese, without being iconoclastic.

Any time you set out to intentionally break a law, degrade a standard, and demean a time tested pattern you always wind up with something that looks like you have set out to degrade a standard, break a law and demean a time tested pattern. In other words; you have missed the art and instead, swerved head on into your political statement on the subject. In the end, unless people are touched by what you have produced no one will attempt to emulate it. Not that this matters but you don't have a movement unless someone starts a direction that others desire to follow. Right now the way and the art that Ryan Neil has demonstrated with his trees is worth emulating. I think Stacey's displays demonstrate the kind of artistic thinking that can lead somewhere as well. I know some don't like the direction in either case but there is a heart and soul in both advents. When I look at something that I really like I feel transported somewhere in my mind beyond where I may be at the moment. In my mind that is the spirit of bonsai, which takes me to the purity of the mountains and the freshness of the smell of Pine on a summer breeze rattling in in the branches over-head. For me; one simple bonsai done very well not only takes on an image but it suggests a history of its own, it's not just one pretty tree it is a piece of an environment that created the beauty in the image of the tree.
 
Messages
3,554
Reaction score
4,269
You are certainly entitled to disagree with people, formulate your own opinions... Do your own thing. Nobody- including anyone form the Pacific NW is preventing you from doing that or saying you shouldn't. I think you made my point though- you seem to be implying Ryan and Randy Clark... Are telling people that only their POV is acceptable. Where have you seen any implication of that? In all the blogs, FB articles, interviews I have read about Ryan, Randy, the artisans cup... I have never seen any indication that they are giving that vibe off. It is my opinion that people like yourself who are taking it that way are injecting your own bias into the discussion and that is what I do not understand. Ryan tried to make a great Bonsai show, and says he wants to advance Bonsai in America... And so many have responded to basically say "why is he telling me I am doing Bonsai wrong or that my trees don't matter"...?? Or- "ALL they had in the show was big collected Junipers, so they a re saying anyone not doing that isn't doing American Bonsai"??? That simply isn't the case. In the pics I saw of the Artisan's cup and of Ryan's nursery I have seen many large collected Junipers with lots of deadwood sure, but I have also seen many trees of other varieties and dramatically different styles.

So, I am not saying- NOBODY is saying- you are not entitled to disagree with someone or have your own opinions, but if you are going to take a stand against what Ryan is doing or saying... At least make sure you are right about what what you are rallying against. Has Ryan made any statement for or against varying styles or "diversity" within the American scene? I haven't seen any "rules" or directives put out by anyone, and I have not seen anything that made me feel he or anyone else in that area are against other types of people, trees or shows being part of the American scene. That is what is confusing to me. I would never disparage you for having your own ideas and opinions, but you seem to be projecting some negative stigma on others that I see no evidence for. That is my concern. I agree with your opinion- and think we both are on the same side here- Bonsai, like any art form has room for all different types of creations! Why do you feel Ryan is somehow opposed to this idea? Perhaps I have just not seen the same comments you have.
Now you are putting words into my mouth to try and suit your own argument...

No where did I state in any of what i have posted did Ryan or Randy say or not say anything? So, off the deep end we go?

Nor did I say that when I might of disagree with Ryan or his any of his views what this view could of been about, or even if i disagreed with him in the first place... for all you know, I might of disagreed with him about a flavor of cheese, and what was the best, right?
Talk about assumptions and preconceived notions about folks...

I am outta here... this conversation clearly cannot be one had. Your right just a hater of poor Ryan and the Seattle Bonsai scene....
 

PiñonJ

Omono
Messages
1,402
Reaction score
3,332
Location
New Mexico, AHS heat zone 5
USDA Zone
6b
I think a lot of people are missing the point here. Unless I've missed something (always a possibility), Ryan is not trying to dictate to anyone what American Bonsai should be. His fervent desire is to see bonsai, as practiced in America, elevated to a higher level. The American aesthetic will emerge of its own accord, as it has in Europe. Ryan's contribution will help define that, but it won't be a prescription that he hands down to the rest of us. He is very open-minded about style. I think he just wants any concept of style held to a high standard, which I find completely reasonable.
 

Eric Group

Masterpiece
Messages
4,554
Reaction score
4,855
Location
Columbia, SC
Now you are putting words into my mouth to try and suit your own argument...

No where did I state in any of what i have posted did Ryan or Randy say or not say anything? So, off the deep end we go?

Nor did I say that when I might of disagree with Ryan or his any of his views what this view could of been about, or even if i disagreed with him in the first place... for all you know, I might of disagreed with him about a flavor of cheese, and what was the best, right?
Talk about assumptions and preconceived notions about folks...

I am outta here... this conversation clearly cannot be one had. Your right just a hater of poor Ryan and the Seattle Bonsai scene....
Wait... You made points about integrating different styles and POVs into American Bonsai, got defensive about not being able to disagree with Ryan/ others and now you are saying you were NOT disagreeing with anybody in the first place? Just Trying to clarify because that is how I read it. I wasn't putting words in your mouth I was quoting you and asking for clarification Stacy. I am still clearly confused.

I felt we were having a pretty civil discussion not sure why you are running off in such a huff... I didn't even feel we were on opposite sides of the discussion for the most part.

Regardless, it is all a pretty subjective pointless discussion I suppose! A good tree is a good tree whether it is in Alaska, Florida or Japan! I like 'em all!

For me it is all about the trees. I don't have a lot of interest in the stands, scrolls or even companion plants.. I don't really have a strong interest in learning all the rules of a traditional Japanese 3 pony display and only recently got a strong interest in pots- and via @johng rocks!

Sorry if we got off on the wrong foot again Stacy that wasn't my intent.
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
14,002
Reaction score
16,913
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
I think a lot of people are missing the point here. Unless I've missed something (always a possibility), Ryan is not trying to dictate to anyone what American Bonsai should be. His fervent desire is to see bonsai, as practiced in America, elevated to a higher level. The American aesthetic will emerge of its own accord, as it has in Europe. Ryan's contribution will help define that, but it won't be a prescription that he hands down to the rest of us. He is very open-minded about style. I think he just wants any concept of style held to a high standard, which I find completely reasonable.
I agree. I have often used music as a comparable analogy. In general I can tell the compositions of Vivaldi from Bach though they both more or less occupied the same time frame in music history. You tell the differences in style and cliches in the actual structure of the music. Vivaldi loved a lot of arpeggios on the violin that used unique voicing that makes is work apparent from the almost mathematical structure of Bach. It is this kind of thing that is going to define American bonsai, eventually, in-spite of ourselves.

Stacey; come on man you have to stay and defend your point of view, it's not wrong.
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,913
Reaction score
45,597
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
Point is.....

Ryan never said,

"I am the only one doing American Bonsai."

Or...

"This show alone is American Bonsai"

But people are getting their panties in a twist as if he did.

Was Bill V. Represented and present at the show?
Yes.

Nuff Said?

Probly not....because people don't understand what respect is, so they do not know when it is the very thing that should be unbunching those sticky panties.

I'm sure if you ask Ryan, he would tell you it was difficult to put the show together, and there is Probly a tree or 2 or 4 he would have liked to have in the show, maybe even over others in hindsight. (cuz I reckon he is something of a stickler for perfect)

Big Ideas.....Big Work....Big Accomplishment.

Big recognition.

Nuff Said?

For now.

Sorce
 
Top Bottom