My first and only JBP in central Texas

[Mame-Mo]

That is a complicated question. I am assuming that you want to keep the current design and you want to move to refinement (versus development) of your pine.

If you let the tree run, it will be better for the tree, but it will ruin your design of a tiny little exposed root shohin. However if you look at your tree it is really weak. It looks to be about three years old (from seed). There is almost no ramification - you have a total of five candles on the entire tree. In a perfect world you would want to decandle this year and by next year your tree would only be slightly taller, but would have ten candles... etc.

Decandling is a stressful experience for the tree, and the fewer secondary needles are on the tree, the more stressful it is. The tree has to be as strong as possible to push a second set of candles in the growing season. Timing of decandling is critical, as is the timing of your fertilization. You want to fertilize heavily until you decandle, and then hold off fertilizing until the tree has pushed its second set of candles. You want the tree to be as strong as possible so it has the strength to push the new candles, but you don't want to fertilize while the new candles are extending because you will get too much elongation out of them. As soon as the new candles have stopped elongating and have opened you can start fertilizing again.

The sooner you decandle in the spring, the less stressful it is for the tree (as long as it is strong) and the larger the second set of candles will be. If you wait longer (late June or early July), it is a little more stressful for the tree, and the second set of candles will be small. If you wait TOO long (like until August), the tree won't push candles at all, and will only set buds for next year... which in the case of a small tree with few secondary needles could be a death sentence.

So I will be interested to hear what others say, but if it were my tree I would fertilize the heck out of it right now and decandle it in a few weeks (mid/late May). This is early for decandling, and will hopefully not kill the tree. You will be rolling the dice, but it is the only way you will develop ramification while keeping the trunk small and tenuous. Needless to say, do not remove a SINGLE needle that is on the tree currently. You will need every one.

Small exposed root shohin pines are not common for the simple reason that you have to keep the tree on the edge of extinction to maintain the design. If you develop too much ramification, the trunk will thicken too much, and you will have to change your design plans.

Look at this exposed root black pine by Jonas Dupuich. Look at the ramification! At the same time... look at the trunk caliper to support it.

View attachment 239624

I'm really not DEAD SET on the design, that is just how I got it. Although I do think it looks kind of cool, I have a hard time imagining it aging well. Sort of like a cute puppy that grows into an ugly dog if that makes sense. I'm essentially open to any suggestions to improve the tree. My primary goal is survival and health/ promoting growth for more options in the future. I appreciate you taking the time to give me some advice.

 

[Mame-Mo]

In reference to the previous advice to cut early would it be advisable to cut these candles short soon to even them out with the smaller ones in the back?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I probably would not. This pine doesn’t have much foliage, and reducing the shoots would weaken it. If you're a skilled horticulturalist, you could get away with it, and the result would be new buds setting for next year at the point where you cut them, and maybe some at the collar where this growth started the year.

A safer plan is to let these grow until early fall, then prune the tree back and let it set new buds at the cuts for next spring.

 

[Mame-Mo]

Thank up

I probably would not. This pine doesn’t have much foliage, and reducing the shoots would weaken it. If you're a skilled horticulturalist, you could get away with it, and the result would be new buds setting for next year at the point where you cut them, and maybe some at the collar where this growth started the year.

A safer plan is to let these grow until early fall, then prune the tree back and let it set new buds at the cuts for next spring.

thank you for your response. Where would you suggest to cut in fall?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Thank up

thank you for your response. Where would you suggest to cut in fall?

Ask again in the fall.

 

[Mame-Mo]

Well the unavoidable or perhaps the inevitable happened. My little pine fell and the pot broke. Although it seemed to be thriving, the consensus seems to be that it is hanging on my a thread at it’s current form. I was NOT prepared to have to report this tree (I was hoping to have a lot more information on hand before that) and as a result I tried to make a soil mixture that seemed as close to the substrate it was currently in as possible. I ended up using about 50% decomposed granite and 50% lava sand. It seems to behave similarly when watered and it seems to mimic some of the characteristics of the mystery sand it was planted in when I got it. However, I am curious if it could suffocate the roots or further damage the tree? As always I appreciate any advice.

 

[Thomas J.]

Have you thought of reaching out to anyone in the Austin Bonsai Society for help? There is no reason why this little guy can't have a good healthy life but it first starts out with good soil first and foremost. After that it's all about doing the correct work at the correct time. If you were here in the DFW area I could lend a hand and get you on the right track.Good luck with it.

 

[Mame-Mo]

Have you thought of reaching out to anyone in the Austin Bonsai Society for help? There is no reason why this little guy can't have a good healthy life but it first starts out with good soil first and foremost. After that it's all about doing the correct work at the correct time. If you were here in the DFW area I could lend a hand and get you on the right track.Good luck with it.

Sorry for the late response I didn't see this. My schedule used to conflict with their meetings but I am going to my first meeting next week and as chance would have it there is a couple from Dallas that grow pines.

 

[Adair M]

Sorry for the late response I didn't see this. My schedule used to conflict with their meetings but I am going to my first meeting next week and as chance would have it there is a couple from Dallas that grow pines.

Yes, that would be Howard and Sylvia Smith. They are excellent with JBP.

 

[Mame-Mo]

Just an update on the little pine, and adding another pine I purchased at the LBF conference in Houston. The smaller pine's needles have really filled out but they are rather light in color in comparison to the new growth on the bigger pine. It was also recommended by Sylvia to allow one of the branches to grow out as a sacrifice to thicken the trunk which seems obvious in retrospect, but really did help me visualize a future for this tree. It was also recommended to house the arial roots under small cup with pearlite after re-potting it in better soil next year. As for the larger tree I'm a little clueless about what to do next, if anything, in the fall, but I like the roots and movement. I guess I have a few decades to figure it out.

 

[Adair M]

We don’t know which is the bigger one and which is the smaller one. There’s nothing to give a sense of scale.

Sylvia’s advice of protecting the small roots using a cup of perlite is not all that different than my advice of protecting them with marbles, is it?

Listen, do what Sylvia tells you to do. She’s great!

 

[markyscott]

Just an update on the little pine, and adding another pine I purchased at the LBF conference in Houston. The smaller pine's needles have really filled out but they are rather light in color in comparison to the new growth on the bigger pine. It was also recommended by Sylvia to allow one of the branches to grow out as a sacrifice to thicken the trunk which seems obvious in retrospect, but really did help me visualize a future for this tree. It was also recommended to house the arial roots under small cup with pearlite after re-potting it in better soil next year. As for the larger tree I'm a little clueless about what to do next, if anything, in the fall, but I like the roots and movement. I guess I have a few decades to figure it out.

They don’t take decades. Be sure to look at my thread and the links I referenced on the first post.

- S

 

[bonsaichile]

Cutting needles short is something that is done quite often with pines. It should not affect the health of your tree and can be used to balance the strength of different branches.

But it must be noted than cutting needles is poor form. Needle plucking is a better way to balance strength. in any case, I would not touch a single needle in that tree for this season

 

[Mame-Mo]

Just an update, it definitely filled out this year. I am certain the soil it’s in is not great since I had to emergency repot it after a fall, but hopefully it won’t hurt it till spring. Are there any ways to tell how healthy pine’s are that y’all could suggest? With my procumbens it is really easy to tell if they are suffering by feeling the foliage, but so far the pines seem to just look like pines.

 

[Thomas J.]

So here's my take on this, if you want to see if you can do JBP in Central TX. then why don't you do that? To do that I would let this guy continue to grow out by doing nothing for a few years and repotting it into a colander or better yet a pond basket. This way you get the experience of seeing how your fertilizing routine is working, how and when the buds are setting and looking ahead to its future design by establishing new branches in their proper position. As it is now the tree in my opinion from what I can tell looks pretty healthy so you have that going for you. You can keep the same design but keep it in proportion, as it is now the tree is pretty thin in the trunk as you can tell and could be a bit thicker so as not to look like it's barely hanging on. If you leave it exactly as it is now there won't be much more to do to it and you won't really gain much experience with it. So far I think you'll do good as this one looks to be on the road to nice healthy shohin if you like.

 

[bwaynef]

Are there any ways to tell how healthy pine’s are that y’all could suggest? With my procumbens it is really easy to tell if they are suffering by feeling the foliage, but so far the pines seem to just look like pines.

The best way is to look at JBP that are obviously healthier than your own. Howard & Sylvia seem to be resources for you in that regard.

In general look for thick and stiff dark green needles (don't poke the needle though, as if they're not stiff from hardening off you'll end up breaking them and causing them to brown ...about 2-3 weeks* after you've done it, fat elongating buds, ...and backbuds growing on branches that have NOT been decandled.

*Just about long enough for you to forget that you were checking to see if the needles were stiff and accidentally caused them to flex too much.

 

[Mame-Mo]

So the plot thickens on this little guy... I have been concerned for a while that the needles on this tree do not look like my other black pine, or any other examples of black pine I have seen. When I got the tree, the few needles it had seemed to be a bit darker darker and more robust, whereas now they are a much lighter green and appear far more delicate. I took it to my local club for a class on exposed root pines and was able to speak to the presenter afterwards for a short bit. Granted he didn't have time to sit and check out the tree for a long period of time and we cant rule out the tree simply being weak, but his first impression was that it was not a black pine but a red pine or some sort of hybrid. After stumbling across this article I can definitely say this tree is far more reminiscent of the example of a red pine. So this all leads to the final question - are there any substantial differences in care between JRP and JBP?

 

[0soyoung]

Very similar, care-wise.
Branches on p. densi. tend to be stiffer and brittle compared to typical p. thunbergii

 

[Mike Corazzi]

So here's my take on this, if you want to see if you can do JBP in Central TX. then why don't you do that? To do that I would let this guy continue to grow out by doing nothing for a few years and repotting it into a colander or better yet a pond basket. This way you get the experience of seeing how your fertilizing routine is working, how and when the buds are setting and looking ahead to its future design by establishing new branches in their proper position. As it is now the tree in my opinion from what I can tell looks pretty healthy so you have that going for you. You can keep the same design but keep it in proportion, as it is now the tree is pretty thin in the trunk as you can tell and could be a bit thicker so as not to look like it's barely hanging on. If you leave it exactly as it is now there won't be much more to do to it and you won't really gain much experience with it. So far I think you'll do good as this one looks to be on the road to nice healthy shohin if you like.

It might even jump out of the pot for joy if it got stuck in smallish pumice in a pond basket.

 

[Mame-Mo]

It might even jump out of the pot for joy if it got stuck in smallish pumice in a pond basket.

You seem to be in an area that’s roughly as hot as mine, but I haven’t been able to trust the idea of a pond basket when can get to 105-110 in the summer here. I did get to put it in some good bonsai soil though. The pot doesn’t look larger in the photo but it’s at least 25% larger than the emergency cup it was in before and probably 4-5 times the volume of the container I got it in. Maybe next year I can go the pond basket route.