My Maple.. again.. Acer P

[ajm55555]

Thank you for the info, very informative. I don't imagine the sorts of dieback seen on my Maple are anything alarming? They are minimal and if those bits were cut off, would clean up the tree a bit any way.
Can these white bits be cut off now and is there a point to doing so?
And what would have caused that dieback? Ive so far not pruned this maple once yet.

Conor, you can cut the dead parts when you want. In the case of big branches (not your case) I also carve the dead wood a bit to help heal the scar.
Dieback is a common sight on maples, nothing to worry about unless it's extensive. Branches can die back for a number of reasons and sometimes it happens after a traumatic event like too much sun, not enough water etc.
I'll do a fall pruning on my maple after it loses most of the leaves and before the night temperature starts going below freezing.
You could prune the long shoots at the end of the cold season but in my opinion if you do it now the tree will have more time to re-balance the energy properly. That could also not make such a difference. I'm not expert enough ;-)

 

[ConorDash]

Conor, you can cut the dead parts when you want. In the case of big branches (not your case) I also carve the dead wood a bit to help heal the scar.
Dieback is a common sight on maples, nothing to worry about unless it's extensive. Branches can die back for a number of reasons and sometimes it happens after a traumatic event like too much sun, not enough water etc.
I'll do a fall pruning on my maple after it loses most of the leaves and before the night temperature starts going below freezing.
You could prune the long shoots at the end of the cold season but in my opinion if you do it now the tree will have more time to re-balance the energy properly. That could also not make such a difference. I'm not expert enough ;-)

More expert than I am mate.
I'll get rid of the white dieback at some point then, thanks for that confirmation.
I'm looking forward to pruning back those long shoots, they are very wild at the moment and I'm not sure I want the thickening branchs yet.
If I do it now, the energy could be sent back and start pushing buds open though? In time for winter to kill them, which could result in more, bad, dieback?
I was planning on pruning back in winter, once winter has properly taken hold and the plant is dormant. Then repotting in early spring and also hopefully wiring at the same time, so as it wakes up, all the activity explodes.. new root growth, branches finding they have been cut and pushing all the energy around to new growth and hopefully getting some leaves that don't die! Haven't had it long enough yet to see its leaves survive...
Well that's all the theory anyway!

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Cut back in summer after hardening or short after leaf fall (aprox a month from now). Cut one branch, wait 30min. If it bleeds to much, wait few weeks longer. In December the sap starts pumping again. Don't cut to much. Tree needs strength for the repotting...

 

[ajm55555]

I'm looking forward to pruning back those long shoots, they are very wild at the moment and I'm not sure I want the thickening branchs yet.
If I do it now, the energy could be sent back and start pushing buds open though? In time for winter to kill them, which could result in more, bad, dieback?

In my experience branches will thicken mostly when new leaves are sprouting at the tip and the branch is tender. Once that ends, the branch doesn't grow much more. If you prune now there will be no more sprouting since it's not growing season anymore. Since you cannot unfortunately enjoy the nice fall colors of your maple this year, I'd prune now.

Then repotting in early spring and also hopefully wiring at the same time, so as it wakes up, all the activity explodes.. new root growth, branches finding they have been cut and pushing all the energy around to new growth and hopefully getting some leaves that don't die! Haven't had it long enough yet to see its leaves survive...
Well that's all the theory anyway!

Seems like a good plan!
I found this video on YouTube by Graham Potter to be very informative about when exactly to repot a maple. The "when" part is very important.

 

[0soyoung]

In my experience branches will thicken mostly when new leaves are sprouting at the tip and the branch is tender. Once that ends, the branch doesn't grow much more.

Mark where you measure the diameter on the stem with a Sharpie and then periodically use a micrometer for the measurements. That new growth definitely provides the fuel, but your perceptions about thickening are incorrect. It is a bit tedious, but the measurement exercise is well worth doing.

Fact is that woody stems thicken through the entire season, but most rapidly around the time of the summer solstice. Even though the rate of thickening slows after that, more than half of the season's thickening occurs after the solstice. Of course, lopping off the new growth removes much of the engine and, hence, arrests further thickening of the older stem. So, I you are correct in the sense of 'self-fulfilling prophesy' - cut off that new growth and the stem thickening effectively stops.

 

[ajm55555]

Mark where you measure the diameter on the stem with a Sharpie and then periodically use a micrometer for the measurements. That new growth definitely provides the fuel, but your perceptions about thickening are incorrect. It is a bit tedious, but the measurement exercise is well worth doing.

Fact is that woody stems thicken through the entire season, but most rapidly around the time of the summer solstice. Even though the rate of thickening slows after that, more than half of the season's thickening occurs after the solstice. Of course, lopping off the new growth removes much of the engine and, hence, arrests further thickening of the older stem. So, I you are correct in the sense of 'self-fulfilling prophesy' - cut off that new growth and the stem thickening effectively stops.

Thanks for the insight ;-)

 

[ConorDash]

Cut back in summer after hardening or short after leaf fall (aprox a month from now). Cut one branch, wait 30min. If it bleeds to much, wait few weeks longer. In December the sap starts pumping again. Don't cut to much. Tree needs strength for the repotting...

That sounds like a neat little trick, thank you, great info .

In my experience branches will thicken mostly when new leaves are sprouting at the tip and the branch is tender. Once that ends, the branch doesn't grow much more. If you prune now there will be no more sprouting since it's not growing season anymore. Since you cannot unfortunately enjoy the nice fall colors of your maple this year, I'd prune now.


Seems like a good plan!
I found this video on YouTube by Graham Potter to be very informative about when exactly to repot a maple. The "when" part is very important.

Thank you for that, it seems like there is quite a large range of time I can prune it back this winter, I'll watch the vid. I have watched it beforehand I think, before I bought a tree even. Definitely seen that one before. I bought this maple from Graham Potter lol, so his video would be rather fitting!
Yes, it's a shame I can't enjoy the fall colours this season but it'll be worth the wait next time .

 

[ConorDash]

Thought I'd update with a few recent pics. The leaves are a different colour... not sure if that's worrying or not.
You can see how the brand new leaves are immediately inflicted by whatever the problem is.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

It is cold and sometimes windy at night, the new leaves can't cope with that and the tips turn black. For the other leaves it is the "end of live" in fall. I would pull them off. If you want/need to cut back you can do it in a few weeks. With a tree in not optimal health it is often better not to cut back. It opens wounds for infection and a weak tree might get weaker. In this particular case i would wait after regrowth and hardening of the leaves in late spring to cut the branches back and cleaning the tree. Remember to sterilize your tools before and certainly after you work this tree, don't work with your root-scissors on the branches and the other way around. Keep in mind that the tree in this video had a good rootwork done 2 years prior this repotting. He took it back to that point. With a tree with less preparation you will find more bigger roots further from the trunk. Wash it out but be less aggressive when you notice less fibrous roots are next to the trunk. Make sure you have a good medium with larger particles. Hard akadama, medium grain, pure is good here, small layer of bims at the bottom is not bad. Make a plan what you want for this tree. Do you want it to stay like this, do you want extra growth and faster development? Make a drawing of your envisioned end result. With other words, do you need a small pot or a growing box / pot? Make sure you have some options at time of repotting. https://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/post-index/ I found some posts under trident maple and japanese maple with good hints for you. Read them.

 

[ConorDash]

It is cold and sometimes windy at night, the new leaves can't cope with that and the tips turn black. For the other leaves it is the "end of live" in fall. I would pull them off. If you want/need to cut back you can do it in a few weeks. With a tree in not optimal health it is often better not to cut back. It opens wounds for infection and a weak tree might get weaker. In this particular case i would wait after regrowth and hardening of the leaves in late spring to cut the branches back and cleaning the tree. Remember to sterilize your tools before and certainly after you work this tree, don't work with your root-scissors on the branches and the other way around. Keep in mind that the tree in this video had a good rootwork done 2 years prior this repotting. He took it back to that point. With a tree with less preparation you will find more bigger roots further from the trunk. Wash it out but be less aggressive when you notice less fibrous roots are next to the trunk. Make sure you have a good medium with larger particles. Hard akadama, medium grain, pure is good here, small layer of bims at the bottom is not bad. Make a plan what you want for this tree. Do you want it to stay like this, do you want extra growth and faster development? Make a drawing of your envisioned end result. With other words, do you need a small pot or a growing box / pot? Make sure you have some options at time of repotting. https://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/post-index/ I found some posts under trident maple and japanese maple with good hints for you. Read them.

Thank you for the info Dirk. I didn't know that about the new leaves, I'm glad to know the reason the tips are going black is due to cold and wind, as it is right now. Getting in to winter, it will only get colder and windier.
I was hoping to cut back at some point in winter, as it is needed a lot. I have not pruned this tree at all yet and there is a lot of long leggy growth which I don't want. You think waiting till late spring to cut back? That seems like a long time :/.
My initial plan was to cut back in winter, then when it's ready, near bud opening, repot in early spring and wire it at the same time. Seems like the best chance to do all the work to it but I would guess the wiring could be during spring sometime. I'd like it to simply survive winter first!
My plan at the moment is good branch structure development. I'm happy with its trunk, I love it really. The slender curve of the trunk and diameter are great. A better branch structure, built up over a few years or so, then ramification for a great canopy. That's the current vision.
I'll read that word press post now .

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

The normal timing would be (where i am).
Wait for leaves to fall.
The week after that: cut back (do one test branch) to healthy interior small shoots.
Wire at that time.
Wait for buds to swell and wait until you see first hint of green from the leaves AND (when you are lucky) you are expecting the weather to get warmer. Then repot.
Don't fiddle with the tree or branches after you repot. Don't even move your tree OR be very careful! First month is crucial, new roots should be forming, messing with the tree could damage them. Please do wire your tree firmly in the pot, when it moves, it is not firm enough! Keep it out of the wind and on a warm-ish place. I start mine in greenhouse.

But.
There are two reasons for me why you could wait to cut back.
1. The tree is not in optimal health. (wet roots, little drainage, fungus,...)
2. You are relative new.

You want your tree in optimal health before "real work" is done. The best way is to give it a good growing medium, not cutting back the roots to much when repotting. Maples can handle lots of rootwork, but if you do it on your own, who will decide it is to much? Try to remember how the roots look when you repot, make a picture. Let the tree for 2 growing seasons in the next pot. Meanwhile learn how to get the tree happy. When you are happy with the branches, cut back after hardening off in spring and select the new branches in fall. Keep the canopy open by reducing the amount of foliage.

After two years you must have a bullet proof maple with lots of good placed branches. By then you will know what to do with the roots.

 

[ConorDash]

Plans have moved on a little on this Acer P now, from another thread:
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/jm-acer-p-pruning-advice.25371/

I just wanted to put a few update pics.
Also I have noticed its first growth, since winter began. I can't tell if this means it is coming out of dormancy or not, the rest of its buds don't look ready at all.





Its nice to see . But the next month or 2 will reveal a lot about this troublesome Maple!

Got the wood for its grow box, still yet put to be put together.

 

[GailC]

Do you have to wait for it to leaf out before repotting or can you do it now if its starting to wake up?

 

[ConorDash]

Do you have to wait for it to leaf out before repotting or can you do it now if its starting to wake up?

Good question, not 100% sure really. I think I have to wait till bud break to repot, as during dormancy all the plants energy is stored in its roots, this energy then supplies the tree as it breads dormancy and buds come out.
If I repotted too early, I would risk losing some of that energy by losing roots, either accidentally or by pruning (wasn't planning to do much pruning this time round, as it needs all the strength it can get).

Thats my thinking any way, I wonder if someone else can comment if thats correct or wrong.

 

[petegreg]

Good question, not 100% sure really. I think I have to wait till bud break to repot...

Bud swelling is the best time to repot. I would watch the buds closely, it might be very soon. But wait for maple growers.
Any frosts possible from this time of year?

 

[ajm55555]

Conor, in this video Graham Potter explains very well the best time you should repot and confirms what you know.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Best just before green from the leaves can be seen. Keep in mind that when temps go down growth will stop. Not a disaster... Put the tree out of the wind on a sunny place. Avoid frost. Here it will be a few weeks.

 

[petegreg]

I think this is an all containing article. http://bonsai4me.com/Basics/BasicsWhen to Repot your Bonsai.htm
And the most important thing is to use same or right terminology. Bud break is the stage four in this article. The window is open from stage 2-4, not too narrow, but if you have many trees...

 

[ConorDash]

Bud swelling is the best time to repot. I would watch the buds closely, it might be very soon. But wait for maple growers.
Any frosts possible from this time of year?

I believe the frost is over, but I will check a weather forecast for rough estimations. Night temps seem to be staying above freezing, although it does drop to 0 end of next week then back to normal again.
I've got them out of the shed for fresh air and been having some nice sun recently, but perhaps I should put them back in the shed, mid week.

I've give that article another read. I had read it at one point but need to read agin . Thank you.

 

[ConorDash]

Conor, in this video Graham Potter explains very well the best time you should repot and confirms what you know.

Best just before green from the leaves can be seen. Keep in mind that when temps go down growth will stop. Not a disaster... Put the tree out of the wind on a sunny place. Avoid frost. Here it will be a few weeks.

I'll give that video a watch, I think I've seen it before, graham stopped making videos a while ago and I did watch a good few before.
I'll have to watch out for coming frosts, if any. The buds still seem the same, not swelling in any way yet. Gonna be soon though so I'll have to make sure everything's ready!