My New JBP may need a few grafts?

Drew

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Thanks for the info @Adair M. I'll try putting some more grafts on the top of these branches and cross the scion like you suggested. If there a limit as to how many grafts you can put on a branch? also i used a grafting knife and some attempts I could not make the stock cut long enough.. I think I went too deep too early and hit the wood! your slicing method sounds like it my solve this. Also if the first graft fails can I just try again in the same location bit a little closer to the trunk? I'm not too confident these will take TBH!
 

clem

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hello, for me your tree can become very good even if your grafting doesn't succeed : a pine with a very good nebari & a trunk with tapper and movement, and long branches. I have never grafted, but appoach grafts is said to be much easier.
As the trunk moves to the right, i would let some branches grow to the right, with movement. A round shape with flat crown reminds me old pines. A triangular shape reminds me younger tree.

JBP with first branch.jpg
 
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clem

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Here are pics of black pines near to my home. (pinus nigra austriaca).

A Younger one with a triangular shape :

IMG_0973.JPG


here are pics of older one with bigger trunk & a rounder shape, a flatter crown and long branches :

IMG_0971.JPG

IMG_0974.JPG
 

Drew

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Thanks for your thoughts and virt @clem much appreciated. I like hearing different perspectives and ideas.
 

Adair M

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Here are pics of black pines near to my home. (pinus nigra austriaca).

A Younger one with a triangular shape :

View attachment 231830


here are pics of older one with bigger trunk & a rounder shape, a flatter crown and long branches :

View attachment 231831

View attachment 231832
Clem, JBP and Austrian Black Pine are very different. JBP is a double flush and Austrian Black is a single flush.

That said, there is some merit in what you proposed. Old JBP do have rounded tops, but they are usually more pointed than other pines. Perhaps their wood is weaker, so branches tend to droop more, I don’t know.

The long lower right branch in your virt looks good, but I’m not a fan of the long upper right branches. Makes the tree look off balance to me. I prefer a more triangular profile. At least for a JBP. Your virt looks like an old oak tree.
 

clem

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For me the most important thing is to make trees that you like, that make you happy to look at whatever other people think.
I like very much this JBP, one of the best (one of my fav') i've seen in this forum. I like big and long branches, and empty spaces, and assymetric trees. This long branche on the right could be a focal point. On the previous pic, the big pinus nigra austriaca with long branche on the right, if you virtually add palmatum leaves on it, it would look like a palmatum. So i don't mind if a pine that i like very much doesn't look like every pine. All tastes are in Nature ;)
 
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clem

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In Japan there are sometimes JWP grown with a very long first branch, so i imagined this pine with very long branches on the right. I tried to draw the needles so that it looks more like a pine ;)

JBP with first branch2.jpg
 

Adair M

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In Japan there are sometimes JWP grown with a very long first branch, so i imagined this pine with very long branches on the right. I tried to draw the needles so that it looks more like a pine ;)

View attachment 231853
That “strong branch” style in Japan is a fairly unique style used often in garden trees, and sometimes (rarely) in bonsai. They’re used to point the way towards the entrance of the garden.

As a bonsai, that style is kind of a novelty, rather than a mainstream bonsai.

And, it’s a single branch, the lowest branch on the tree.
 

clem

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Nature show some pines with so many incredible trunks and branches.. When i look at a very twisted trunk pine in a magasine or an expo, i just say "wahou, so incredible, that movement" i like it. Why not doing pines with long branches..

pin sylvestre 2018 11 14 (58).JPG

If i find a pine with a long branch that is not the 1rst one i'll take a pic for you :)
 

River's Edge

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Thanks for your thoughts and virt @clem much appreciated. I like hearing different perspectives and ideas.
Hi Drew
Just a couple of observations. 1. There is a grafting method using chisels for older sections of trunk and branches that i prefer for a situation like yours. Essentially much of the process is the same with the exception of preparing the host cut.
Use a straight chisel to create a vertical cut lengthwise along the site to be grafted, oriented with the sap flow.
Insert a chisel approx 25-30 degree by hand in to the tree , tilt inward to the tree then use a small hammer to insert the chisel deeper creating the length of cut to insert the scion. leave the chisel in place.
2. Preparation of scion material by decandling the previous year is best and using younger scions with 1 year wood has been most successful for me. ( pictures above seemed to show the use of older material for scions.)
3. The picture below will illustrate the result, near the upper part is a completed graft that took from the previous year and subsequent grafts that have been added once it was apparrent the tree was strong enough for grafting to be successful!
Caveat, I recognize that this tree is not the advanced age shown by yours but the process is the same.


IMG_0946.JPG
 

Adair M

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Nature show some pines with so many incredible trunks and branches.. When i look at a very twisted trunk pine in a magasine or an expo, i just say "wahou, so incredible, that movement" i like it. Why not doing pines with long branches..

View attachment 231858

If i find a pine with a long branch that is not the 1rst one i'll take a pic for you :)
Clem, nature does some beautiful things, and some really ugly things. Lots and lots in between.

Sure, it’s fine to be inspired by nature.

Bonsai is an art form of artificial idealized trees made by humans. Some look like natural trees, some don’t.

5856DAC6-51B3-42E6-84A1-12D0679D7F33.jpeg

Above is an example of a “strong arm” bonsai. I doubt you’ll find an example in nature of something like this. (I’ve seen some more extreme examples of this style. This just happened to be the first one I came upon when I searched google.)
 

clem

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I'm not a fan of this style neither, because the branch lack of movement. The same branch with movement would be better,

some examples with long branches, from Taiwan



IMG_097455.jpg


IMG_0974553.jpg

IMG_0974554.jpg

From Japan :

pin.jpg


A pine with a 1rst branch shorter than the second :

pinus pentaphylla sur roche.jpg
 

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0soyoung

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Preparation of scion material by decandling the previous year is best and using younger scions with 1 year wood has been most successful for me. ( pictures above seemed to show the use of older material for scions.)
Do you mean that you store the spring candles (in refrig) for use as free scions in grafts made the following late-winter/early-spring? Else, I guess you are just saying one should use the youngest growth on the tree for scions - right? o_O In which case, what is the relevance of decandling the previous year.

... just a bit confused, I am.
 

River's Edge

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Do you mean that you store the spring candles (in refrig) for use as free scions in grafts made the following late-winter/early-spring? Else, I guess you are just saying one should use the youngest growth on the tree for scions - right? o_O In which case, what is the relevance of decandling the previous year.

... just a bit confused, I am.
I guess it was unclear for sure.
No i do not store the spring candles.
I use the summer candles that occur after decandling.
In this case i am decandling areas not for refinement but in order to produce preferred material for grafting from the same tree. Of course i am selecting areas that will not be part of the final design.
Hope this helps to clarify. Simply put the preparation of scion material takes place the year prior to grafting! The scions are young and healthy from the second flush but not removed from the tree until grafting takes place!
I prefer this approach, it may not be for everyone, but i feel it gives me healthier and more appropriately sized material for grafting. I feel this is one important aspect of the grafting process. The second flush is usually more compact and sturdier than the first flush that can get quite large by the end of a full growing season. And this approach does not require refrigeration.
It does require better timing for the graft and faster placing of the graft due to the activity level of the scion and tree.
 

Adair M

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Clear now.
Thank you, Frank.
One improvement over Frank’s method would be to take the scion while the tree is still dormant and store in a plastic bag in the fridge. Then perform the graft when the stock tree is just becoming active, a couple weeks later. The scion, fresh out of the fridge, will still be dormant, and when it wakes up, the stock will be fully active.
 

River's Edge

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One improvement over Frank’s method would be to take the scion while the tree is still dormant and store in a plastic bag in the fridge. Then perform the graft when the stock tree is just becoming active, a couple weeks later. The scion, fresh out of the fridge, will still be dormant, and when it wakes up, the stock will be fully active.
I was originally taught to refrigerate the scion as well. However i have had better results without refrigerating the scions, just timing the grafting carefully! So just to be clear i have done it both ways and choose the simpler method.
 

River's Edge

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Thanks for the info guys. what type of chisel do you use? a smallish one you would find at a hardware store of a specialised one?
I purchased chisels from a hardware store and ground them to match the pattern of my teachers tools. With respect to bevel and angle. Then over time i made several of different widths for different applications. The two chisels on the left have been modified for grafting, the one on the right is standard from the store. The three most useful sizes for my work has been 1/2 inch, 3/8 inch and 1/4 stock. i prefer the wood handled with iron ring top. japanese steel. I am sure any good quality chisel properly sharpened and maintained would work.
 

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