Nitrogen from the air

[Joe Dupre']

Ok, I'm not a biologist or a chemist, just a humble, backyard bonsai guy. Everyone knows plants need oxygen. Oxygen is pulled into the soil when we water our trees. Simple. Makes sense. But trees need nitrogen too. People forget that the air we breathe is about 21% oxygen. BUT, it's 78% nitrogen. That is a major stockpile of readily available nitrogen. The problem is plants normally can't take up nitrogen directly from the air. On a very simple level, nitrogen is changed into a form plants CAN use by microbes. Microbes LOVE organic soil. That is the big reason I use from 30% - 60% organic soil for my bonsai. It seems to me that plants evolved over millions of years to take advantage of what's available in their environment. Just like their preferred pH level.........about 6.5 or so. Just so happens rain water has an average pH of 6.5. Hmmmmm. Ok, biological chemists, blast away!

 

[shohin_branches]

You want to study the Nitrogen cycle for more info.

The Nitrogen Cycle: Processes, Players, and Human Impact

Nitrogen is one of the primary nutrients critical for the survival of all living organisms. Although nitrogen is very abundant in the atmosphere, it is largely inaccessible in this form to most organisms. This article explores how nitrogen becomes available to organisms and what changes in...

www.nature.com

Lightning also can break the Nitrogen in the atmosphere into a usable form for plants to take up. That's why everything looks so green after a thunderstorm.

 

[RJG2]

You want to study the Nitrogen cycle for more info.

The Nitrogen Cycle: Processes, Players, and Human Impact

Nitrogen is one of the primary nutrients critical for the survival of all living organisms. Although nitrogen is very abundant in the atmosphere, it is largely inaccessible in this form to most organisms. This article explores how nitrogen becomes available to organisms and what changes in...

www.nature.com

Lightning also can break the Nitrogen in the atmosphere into a usable form for plants to take up. That's why everything looks so green after a thunderstorm.

So, what you're saying is, we need some Tesla coils around our bonsai, got it!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Plants require nitrogen, yes. But mass-wise, very little of a plant is actually nitrogen. It's just inside parts of the foliage and all proteins, which are plenty diverse, but not much more in weight : sap ratio compared to animals or fungi.
That means that regular decomposition of organic soil will provide more nitrogen than a plant needs.
A single dose of fertilizer, if you look at the molecular amount, can be enough to feed a plant for about 3 years worth of nitrogen.

Organics for me have less pH swings, better buffering capacity and a higher drought resistance and a different microbiome. I'm using it for plenty of reasons but not for nitrogen fixation.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

That is the big reason I use from 30% - 60% organic soil for my bonsai.

People use inorganic mixes because we are keeping trees in small containers and the trees can quickly become root-bound, killing the roots and choking the life out of the tree. Inorganic soil allows oxygen to reach all the roots, allows water to flow through all parts of the rootball, and keeps the roots moist without keeping them soaking wet. Root mass is significantly increased in inorganic soil. You can easily provide all the nitrogen a tree needs without resorting to organic soil mixes. I'm assuming you fertilize your trees?

People use organic soil because (1) it's readily available and (2) it's cheap - not because it is better.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Nitrogen can be converted from gas to a plant useable form by some nitrogen fixing bacteria. However, only a few plants such as legumes (wisteria and Brazilian rain trees) and even fewer other trees (such as alders) have nitrogen fixing bacteria associated with their roots. The bacteria live in nodules on their roots and produce nitrogen for their host plants. Lighting can also convert gaseous nitrogen to nitrogen oxides which can be taken up by plants but it is only a major source over long periods of time. In natural settings nitrogen is a very limiting nutrient because it is mainly there as a gas and when plants die and decay their organic nitrogen often is converted back to gaseous forms by various soil bacteria. So don’t expect lightning strikes and nitrogen fixing bacteria to do much for your bonsai.

 

[Desert O'Piñon]

Organics for me have less pH swings, better buffering capacity and a higher drought resistance and a different microbiome. I'm using it for plenty of reasons but not for nitrogen fixation.

I use a fairly high organic mix (most bark) in some of my trees, primarily because of my exceptionally dry climate. Of course, I'm still early in my education, and balanced watering is not an instantaneous knowledge.

Lightning also can break the Nitrogen in the atmosphere into a usable form for plants to take up. That's why everything looks so green after a thunderstorm.

This has always fascinated me. I understood it to be the nitrates caused by lightning that produces the "smell of rain."

People use organic soil because (1) it's readily available and (2) it's cheap - not because it is better.

I agree, although in some circumstances, my newbie brain still thinks it can have benefits.

Nitrogen can be converted from gas to a plant useable form by some nitrogen fixing bacteria. However, only a few plants such as legumes (wisteria and Brazilian rain trees) and even fewer other trees (such as alders) have nitrogen fixing bacteria associated with their roots. The bacteria live in nodules on their roots and produce nitrogen for their host plants. Lighting can also convert gaseous nitrogen to nitrogen oxides which can be taken up by plants but it is only a major source over long periods of time. In natural settings nitrogen is a very limiting nutrient because it is mainly there as a gas and when plants die and decay their organic nitrogen often is converted back to gaseous forms by various soil bacteria. So don’t expect lightning strikes and nitrogen fixing bacteria to do much for your bonsai.

This. It's why we still have to fertilize, even with legumes in organic mix. My grandfather fertilized his alfalfa, a legume, and he farmed for over 60 years.

 

[dbonsaiw]

This. It's why we still have to fertilize, even with legumes in organic mix. My grandfather fertilized his alfalfa, a legume, and he farmed for over 60 years.

Interesting. In like the 13th century, the French figured out that legumes added nitrogen to the soil and would split their fields in three - 2 wheat and one legume, with the legume section rotating each year to replenish the soil. I wonder if they still had to fertilize.

 

[BonsaiMatt]

The nitrogen in the atmosphere is mostly N2, which contains a triple bond. This bond requires a ton of energy to split apart, so plants don’t bother. They rely on bacteria to break up N2 and convert it into plant-usable forms.

 

[Desert O'Piñon]

Interesting. In like the 13th century, the French figured out that legumes added nitrogen to the soil and would split their fields in three - 2 wheat and one legume, with the legume section rotating each year to replenish the soil. I wonder if they still had to fertilize.

It's a good question. My grandfather practiced crop rotation, tilling each year's stubble into the field, with each field getting one year off out of every seven. Sort of an agricultural sabbatical. After surviving the Dust Bowl of the 1930s, he was committed to doing his part to keep it from happening again. He saw that practices promoted by the government had played a major role in that disaster, so he started studying and following more ancient ways that have been time-tested. He used as few chemicals as he could and still come out in the black. He did use anhydrous ammonia for corn, but he didn't like the idea of putting poison on food. If, and only if he had to use pesticides, it was before the blossoming of the grains. It was his commitment to hard work, stewardship, family, and conservation that nurtured my own love of these same values.

 

[Joe Dupre']

The nitrogen in the atmosphere is mostly N2, which contains a triple bond. This bond requires a ton of energy to split apart, so plants don’t bother. They rely on bacteria to break up N2 and convert it into plant-usable forms.

Hence, my preference for relatively high percentage organic soil. As a backyard bonsai enthusiast for 10 years, I KNOW organic soil works. I didn't read it online, get it from a video by some guy in Japan or hear from a guy on the street. How? 175+ trees collected from the wild and over 30 different species. ALL of them in 30-60% organics. Now, of inorganic soil works for you, you should absolutely use it. I'm sticking with my strategy.

 

[shohin_branches]

Interesting. In like the 13th century, the French figured out that legumes added nitrogen to the soil and would split their fields in three - 2 wheat and one legume, with the legume section rotating each year to replenish the soil. I wonder if they still had to fertilize.

We keep pushing agricultural crops to have higher and higher yield. So you don't  need to fertilize, but when your farm only turns a profit when you have a certain number of acres planted of a crop and the amount of yield determines your profit then you try to get the most out of each acre so you fertilize.

Here is a good chart and article about corn yield. https://extension.entm.purdue.edu/n...icle/historical-corn-grain-yields-in-the-u-s/

One time I was on a flight next to a woman who taught agricultural economics at Washington State University - Spokane and she showed me her spreadsheets for her own farm estimates and how much she has to plant and yield of each crop type minus inputs to turn a profit based on current crop futures. I was a farm worker at the time so I found it really interesting.

 

[shohin_branches]

Hence, my preference for relatively high percentage organic soil. As a backyard bonsai enthusiast for 10 years, I KNOW organic soil works. I didn't read it online, get it from a video by some guy in Japan or hear from a guy on the street. How? 175+ trees collected from the wild and over 30 different species. ALL of them in 30-60% organics. Now, of inorganic soil works for you, you should absolutely use it. I'm sticking with my strategy.

The funny thing is if nitrogen is in an organic form and bound to carbon it cannot be taken up by plants. The microorganisms in the soil need to mineralize it or remove the carbon.

For bonsai there is more value in utilizing an inorganic substrate that gives you the advantage of increased root surface area over trying to build your own nitrogen cycle in a small pot. Fertilizer is part of bonsai and you won't be able to keep a tree in such an extreme environment without it.

 

[Glaucus]

What you say is all true, but these facts are not part of any arguments for or against organic soil I am aware of.

@shohin_branches plants can take up organic compounds that contain nitrogen.

"Although there is evidence that plants can acquire amino acids, small peptides, and (partial) proteins from the soil [8], a high impact in agricultural contexts was traditionally ruled out [5,9]. However, in recent years, many studies opened new questions. First observations proved that the supply of sole amino acids sustains plant growth, and were soon followed by the characterization of root transport systems for amino acid uptake, whose molecular bases were partly elucidated in Arabidopsis (Arabidopsis thaliana L.) and confirmed in crops [10,11]. At the same time, it was proven that the provision of amino acids, even at a very low concentration, can affect root morphology and plant growth [12]. Similarly, considering that urea-based formulations account for over 50% of total N fertilizers applied in agriculture, the discovery of urea transporters in the plasma membrane (PM) of root cells has drawn attention to a direct use of this nutrient by plants [13]."

https://www.mdpi.com/2223-7747/10/4/681

They can also take up sugars. Problem is that it is hard to study if larger molecules are taken up directly, or broken down by microbes first, and then their metabolites being absorbed by the plants.A
And since nitrogen salts are much much cheaper that peptides or amino acids, the former are preferred. When both are present in the soil, it is just hard to figure out which percentage a plant gets from one source, or the other. And what source is preferred.

Hydroponics people like to talk about adding peptides. There is research on possible benefits. But it is not common practice.

This all ignoring the meme discussion on if urea is an organic compounds. Even for urea, it is though that most nitrogen coming from urea taken up by the plant is first broken down in the soil.

 

[Desert O'Piñon]

We keep pushing agricultural crops to have higher and higher yield. So you don't  need to fertilize, but when your farm only turns a profit when you have a certain number of acres planted of a crop and the amount of yield determines your profit then you try to get the most out of each acre so you fertilize.

Yes, this. Of course, farming is an entirely different science in many ways, as you stated. It think it may partially be a stubborn sentimentality holding me back from going 100% inorganic. But I do believe that in this dry climate, it is beneficial for water retention as well as a small amount of nitrogen fixation, but I regularly dose my trees with a generic NPK.

 

[cmeg1]

From my understanding plant growth will be actually very pest and fungus prone given vast quantities of nitrogen.Its because assimilation of all that nitrogen will use all the natural energy and carbohydrate reserves in the leaves.
Making large cells and watery growth.

Look at trees in the ground in just raw clay ….they’re hundreds of years old and the NPK’s are actually produced at root level by root exudate eating microorganisms from having a plant that photosynthesizes naturally and slow growth building this photosythetic energy of sugars in the leaves.