Hi there,
I'm frome Arnhem. The place to be.
Are you on any dutch forums?
Groetjes
I agree with most of what Michael is saying. Grow and cut back is the best approach to getting good strong interior branching.Jurriemr2,
At the risk of being repetitive, wiring and shaping this tree should be the furthest thing from your mind. My reasons: You have only being doing bonsai for a short time and you have only had this tree for a short time. The most vital thing for you to concentrate on is the horticulture of the White pine. It is easy to make a mistake with it and lose the tree. Trust me I grew about 200 from seed in 2000. I sold a few and I lost a few. I have 10 left. In other words, I have 17 years experience with them and I believe I am just starting to realize what I don't yet know about them. ( I am willing to hear any more information about them from anyone) They are very beautiful trees and to have one like yours which I would guess is around 25 to 30 years is pretty special. They certainly are not available in this country!
The most important thing for you to concentrate on is getting the tree to gain strength. That means no wiring. Remember, when you wire and bend a branch, however little, you damage cells along that branch which reduces it's ability to grow for a while until it repairs the damage. Wiring also restricts movement of nutrients and water by constriction. You don't need to worry about shaping this tree for 2 years. As Adair said (and yes I agree with this point ) is that it is very common for White pines to be trimmed incorrectly and end up with long bare branches and shoots on the tips. I know this because I have made the same mistake. Even though I have pinched the new candles every year I have still ended up with long bare branches on some trees (there is huge variation too between seedlings). I have read from Japanese writers that it is best to cut branches on young trees rather than only pinch. In other words, let the shoots grow and then go back and cut out the strong areas and replace them with weaker branches further back. Your tree is past this stage but you will still need to do leader replacement to get the foliage closer in towards the trunk. To do this successfully, the tree needs to have vitality. Your tree is not as vigorous as it could be and that's why I suggest you concentrate on getting strength back into it.
Here you can see that you have long bare areas (red) which eventually will probably be replaced with the branches further in (yellow)
View attachment 138525
I have no doubt that the rest of the tree is the same. You cannot just cut off the long branches because this would weaken the tree tremendously. You must do it in steps. Increase the strength by feeding and plenty of sun and break the candles as normal. That is, break off 2/3 on the outer braches and 1/3 to 1/2 (or nothing) on the inner branches. In autumn, remove more needles from the outer branches and fewer from those further back. After a couple of years - assuming everything else goes to plan - the tree should be strong enough to start removing and replacing a few of the leaders here and there on the tree. I'm writing this to cement the idea into my own head as much as yours!
At this stage, the tree is open enough to allow sunlight into the interior therefore I would recommend no branch pruning at the moment.
Yes but they can back bud if they are very healthy ...and well established, which I'm sure yours is, and if they are of a variety which tends to do this. Some don't.I agree with most of what Michael is saying. Grow and cut back is the best approach to getting good strong interior branching.
This cultivar of JWP has thin branches that stay pretty flexible. Wiring next fall won't injure them at all.
The purpose I see with wiring is to open up the foliage so that sunlight can hit the woody branches. By splaying the foliage out, the dormant buds in the branches will get stimulated to grow. If left shaded by foliage, they won't.
Here's a visual: take your hand, turn it palm up. Now curl your fingers in so that the tips are pointing up. Or as if you are holding a ball. Looking from above at your hand, you can see your palm, and your finger tips, but not the first two joints on your fingers.
Now take your fingers and spread them all splayed out. Now you can see all the length of your fingers.
The first position is how the tree is now. Much of each branch is shaded by the existing foliage. Splaying the foliage out will expose the branches to the sun, and will stimulate backbudding!
I have a JWP that was wired out two years ago. Very similiar to Jur's in that there were long thin branches with foliage on the tips, but needed backbudding. Now, two years later, back budding is beginning. The buds have been forming, and I expect this spring they'll send out shoots. (JBP take s long time to backbud!)
I'll take a picture in the morning.
Had the tree not been wired to expose the wood to the sun, it would NEVER had backbudded.
Michael, the guy who helped me with this is an expert with JWP. He has won at Kokofu.
Michael, Jur's tree looks healthy to me, just unbalanced. By that, I mean that some parts are stronger than others. There is no way to strengthen one part of a tree over another part. The only tool we have is to weaken the stronger parts so that the weaker parts can catch up.Yes but they can back bud if they are very healthy ...and well established, which I'm sure yours is, and if they are of a variety which tends to do this. Some don't.
Wiring always restricts the growth of a branch....always. If you don't believe me, take any tree, wire one branch and leave the rest. see what happens.
Anyway I wish Jurr the best for this tree whatever he decides to do with it.
Uh, Michael??? I have always stated that JWP are reluctant back budders. Actually, I'm quite pleased to get these back buds in only 3 years. (2 1/2 actually). In two more years, these buds will be little branches. They maybe strong enough to cut back to by then. Maybe not.Well Adair, I have to say that if that is the result after several years, it shows you certainly can't rely on the pitiful back budding of a JWP for future branch replacement. It's more like a bonus than a probability. The fact is that if they have reached the long bare stage the only reliable remedy is replacement with back branches and if you don't have replacements, then grafting. To me this further proves that wiring out fans at this stage is probably only aesthetic. There really is no problem letting a pine, especially the parviflora loose shape for a few years for the sake of gaining vigour.
. But until the wood is exposed to the sun, there will be no back budding. So, the longer you wait to wire it out, the longer it will be before the backbudding process will begin.
Their owners will not wire them out to keep the interior branches exposed to the sun.
Jur,
Something has been troubling me about your tree. I think I've figured it out...
You stated that it was "on its own roots". Sure enough, can't see any evidence of a graft on the trunk. But...
The foliage is a cultivar that is pretty much only propagated via grafting. It doesn't airlayer. You can't get it from a seedling. So, how is it that we have this wonderful trunk with old flaky bark with this foliage?
Upon closer examination, I see a lot of old jinned branches. Hmmm... All the current JWP branches still have juvenile bark on them. Hmmmm....
What you have is a JBP trunk with grafted on JWP foliage. All the JWP branches have been grafted on. The Jin's were all the old JBP branches that were no longer needed once the JWP branches became established.
I don't know if this tree was sold to you as a yamadori JWP. It is not. If it were, the price would be astronomical! You have a JBP (or maybe Scots Pine) trunk with grafted on branches.
Which may explain why some branches are weak if the graft union is weak.
Now, does that make it a bad tree? Not at all! I have a JWP, with a very similiar cultivar as yours, where the JWP was grafted onto a Lodgepole trunk. It's very beautiful.
My grafted JWP:
View attachment 138763
Jurriemr2,
At the risk of being repetitive, wiring and shaping this tree should be the furthest thing from your mind. My reasons: You have only being doing bonsai for a short time and you have only had this tree for a short time. The most vital thing for you to concentrate on is the horticulture of the White pine. It is easy to make a mistake with it and lose the tree. Trust me I grew about 200 from seed in 2000. I sold a few and I lost a few. I have 10 left. In other words, I have 17 years experience with them and I believe I am just starting to realize what I don't yet know about them. ( I am willing to hear any more information about them from anyone) They are very beautiful trees and to have one like yours which I would guess is around 25 to 30 years is pretty special. They certainly are not available in this country!
The most important thing for you to concentrate on is getting the tree to gain strength. That means no wiring. Remember, when you wire and bend a branch, however little, you damage cells along that branch which reduces it's ability to grow for a while until it repairs the damage. Wiring also restricts movement of nutrients and water by constriction. You don't need to worry about shaping this tree for 2 years. As Adair said (and yes I agree with this point ) is that it is very common for White pines to be trimmed incorrectly and end up with long bare branches and shoots on the tips. I know this because I have made the same mistake. Even though I have pinched the new candles every year I have still ended up with long bare branches on some trees (there is huge variation too between seedlings). I have read from Japanese writers that it is best to cut branches on young trees rather than only pinch. In other words, let the shoots grow and then go back and cut out the strong areas and replace them with weaker branches further back. Your tree is past this stage but you will still need to do leader replacement to get the foliage closer in towards the trunk. To do this successfully, the tree needs to have vitality. Your tree is not as vigorous as it could be and that's why I suggest you concentrate on getting strength back into it.
Here you can see that you have long bare areas (red) which eventually will probably be replaced with the branches further in (yellow)
View attachment 138525
I have no doubt that the rest of the tree is the same. You cannot just cut off the long branches because this would weaken the tree tremendously. You must do it in steps. Increase the strength by feeding and plenty of sun and break the candles as normal. That is, break off 2/3 on the outer braches and 1/3 to 1/2 (or nothing) on the inner branches. In autumn, remove more needles from the outer branches and fewer from those further back. After a couple of years - assuming everything else goes to plan - the tree should be strong enough to start removing and replacing a few of the leaders here and there on the tree. I'm writing this to cement the idea into my own head as much as yours!
At this stage, the tree is open enough to allow sunlight into the interior therefore I would recommend no branch pruning at the moment.