Maloghurst
Chumono
Here are some close up pics from underside of pads of a famous hinoki from PNW bonsai museum. It helps a LITTLE to see it this way.
Pinching Hinoki
- Thread starter Jzack605
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Maloghurst
Chumono
Here is a pic of the full tree. It’s big but not as big as the underside pics make it look
Jzack605
Chumono
You have no idea how long I’ve been trying to find an image like this.
Much appreciated.
WNC Bonsai
Masterpiece
Wow, that is an ompressive tree with some really nice ramification. Once again a picture is worth a thousand words.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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Thank you @Maloghurst - that is exactly the type photo needed.
Leo in N E Illinois
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@Jzack605 - notice on the full tree image how close to the trunk the foliage is. This is very difficult to maintain. You can see some distance on the lowest branches, but especially as you go higher in the tree there is foliage right against the trunk. Those tufts of foliage that grow on the trunk of a young Hinoki need to be kept in order to have them as a source for foliage in close to the trunk as the tree reaches mature age.
In general, once a branch develops brown bark, it is extremely unlikely it will back bud on in that area. (rare occasions it does happen, but so rare it is best not to count on it). So one prunes and or pinches to always keep green when you are done. And branches are arranged to prevent interior green from getting shaded out.
This makes Hinoki and Thuja difficult trees to develop old, mature specimens. Young Hinoki are fun, because they have a ''mature'' look very quickly. But keeping a Hinoki looking great after it is more than 25 years old becomes a real difficult task, and decisions made about foliage near the trunk when the tree was 5 years old, can make or break the ability to keep it looking great after it hits 25 or 40 or more years old. Yep, a tricky species to do well.
Everything said about Hinoki, also applies to styling Thuja occidentalis. Other members of Chamaecyparis, like C. thyoides, or C. pisifera, the Hinoki rules more or less apply, except these other species are a little better at back budding. Not enough to depend on, but a little better so you do occasionally get lucky.
In general, once a branch develops brown bark, it is extremely unlikely it will back bud on in that area. (rare occasions it does happen, but so rare it is best not to count on it). So one prunes and or pinches to always keep green when you are done. And branches are arranged to prevent interior green from getting shaded out.
This makes Hinoki and Thuja difficult trees to develop old, mature specimens. Young Hinoki are fun, because they have a ''mature'' look very quickly. But keeping a Hinoki looking great after it is more than 25 years old becomes a real difficult task, and decisions made about foliage near the trunk when the tree was 5 years old, can make or break the ability to keep it looking great after it hits 25 or 40 or more years old. Yep, a tricky species to do well.
Everything said about Hinoki, also applies to styling Thuja occidentalis. Other members of Chamaecyparis, like C. thyoides, or C. pisifera, the Hinoki rules more or less apply, except these other species are a little better at back budding. Not enough to depend on, but a little better so you do occasionally get lucky.
Jzack605
Chumono
Yeah the main problem with mine is the foliage isn’t very close to the trunk. I’m working with what I got and trying to give those branches some movement closer toward the trunk to at least give that appearance.
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
Bringing the branches closer with back and forward movement helps.
Initially with forming the pads one of the keys is to keep a few upright shoots to wire flat along the branch, creating a layer above the lower portion of the pad but in the centre of the pad if that makes sense in words. in other words do not remove all upright shoots as some advise.
A good way to visualize the beginning is to hold your hand out, spread the fingers and turn tips of finger upright. This gives you the concept of pad formation.
The process involves removing the downward shoots, retaining roughly i in 3 upward shoots to wire forward. Selecting left and right shoots to retain and form branches. Remove others to create space for foliage development between. Wire out in diamond shaped fan as they develop, continue to select and remove, always keeping as much interior as possible. When wiring out form the shape with the tips wired slightly up. Wiring should create down/ back/ up/forward movement but retain a flatter profile allowing the foliage to reach up and form the pad. The few upward shoots retained are wired flat along the spine of the branch helping to create a higher profile in the centre of the pad. Thus you get the layered pad formation present in the picture shown previously.
Here is a tsukumo cypress ( my teachers) illustrating the formation. This type of pad requires frequent thinning out and cutting back to retain shape and health over time! I work on this species three times a year to maintain them. The process is the same for Hinoki.
WNC Bonsai
Masterpiece
Good description of the difference between this method and what might be seen as conventional pads. I think most folks think of pads as basically flat structures sort of like when you spread out your hand with the fingers fanned out flat. However by pointing the individual pieces of foliage vertically it not only creates a thick pad it also foreshortens the branch and compensates somewhat when so much of the foliage is at the end of a branch.
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
The main benefit is that it opens the interior to keep the foliage closest to the trunk healthy and developing so it is not all at the end of the branch. The few vertical shoots develop the extra foliage for the middle of the pad.
Leo in N E Illinois
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The fans of Hinoki foliage look great fanned out horizontally. Key is to have "orderly" arrangement of fans, a bunch horizontal and one poking up vertical spoils the look. It doesn't have to be all horizontal, you can arrange them any way you want, or work with the natural patterns the Hinoki cultivar displays. For example Hinoki 'Nana' and 'Nana Gracilis' tend to have a large percentage of naturally horizontal fans. One like 'Ceramic' or 'Willamette' have high percentage of vertical fans. Rather than fight a cultivar's natural patterns, work with it and make the appearance uniform through the tree.
One tried and true method to handle long distance between trunk and foliage is to allow the tree to get taller. A taller tree will be in better proportion. This is part of the reason most venerable 50 or more years as bonsai Hinoki are fairly large. They didn't start that large. They were allowed to add height to keep proportions correct.
One tried and true method to handle long distance between trunk and foliage is to allow the tree to get taller. A taller tree will be in better proportion. This is part of the reason most venerable 50 or more years as bonsai Hinoki are fairly large. They didn't start that large. They were allowed to add height to keep proportions correct.
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
I should have added for those looking for additional options and information. Check out David DeGroots newest book for the descriptions, discussions and diagrams illustrating various types pads and the appropriate styles, species they pertain to.
WNC Bonsai
Masterpiece
Be careful with various chamaecyparis species they all might not like being pinched. I tried it on a C. thyoides and the entire branch died back. Fortunately this branch was on a limb I planned to jin anyway so it was a good test bed for the method. However it does mean this one won’t get that nice even manicured look.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
You know, you just pull off the end piece, just the teeny tiny pointy tip that's growing in a direction you want to stop, and the other ends of the same fan (for lack of a better word) take over and grow in the direction they face. That's different than taking off a whole fan by cutting it off at its origin which both stops growth in that direction and reduces foliage mass, too.
WNC Bonsai
Masterpiece
Yes, I’ve used the pinching method on my C. obtusas without problems in the past so I was surprised when the C. thyoides branch turned brown and died after tip pinching. The rest of the tree is green and healthy but not the pinched tip branches!
