Pot School

[pjkatich]

Here is a banded pot that is beautiful, but it confuses me a bit. Can you talk about the elements of this pot please? I pulled this off the web, and forgive me, but don't remember the potters name. This pot seems very strong to me, but incorporates a number of details that seem to go against it's own strength. What type of tree would this work with, and why?

Yes Judy, I think you are correct in your assessment of this pot.

To me, this pot is sending conflicting signals starting with the feet.

They are narrow and decorative which to me denotes a lighter, feminine feel.

The bottom band adds visual weight back to the base of the pot which appears to counter the feeling generated by the style of the feet.

The middle banding attempts to lighten up the feel of the pot but again this is countered by the thick, heavy, squared rim which adds visual weight back to the pot.

Also, the dark color and the outward curve seem to work in opposite directions.

You have a good eye Judy.

Learn to trust your feelings.

Regards,
Paul

 

[Dav4]

I wonder how many people have looked at this thread "Pot School" and thought it was about bonsai cannabis

Not until now.....

 

[pjkatich]

I think we should talk pot shape before lips, or perhaps at the same time, as it seems that different shapes, don't work with all lips.

Concave as opposed to flat sides, and angle or flair from bottom to top. It's easy on a purse shape, as that is super curvy. Seems to me that there are some angled straight sides on ovals and rounds that can go either way.

And then there are the lips. The most confusing part I think for me other than feet. (although I think I got the feet now.)
To me the curve that the lips add to the pot would seem like a feminine touch, but most of what I've read tells me the opposite.

Yes, there is a lot of conflicting information Judy.

Everyone has a different opinion about this subject. As I said earlier, pot selection is a very personal thing.

The information I am passing along here is how I see things and should not be considered gospel.

Now, let's talk about rims before shape.

From a structural point of view, a pronounced rim adds extra support to the the most vulnerable part of a pot. Thin, narrow rims or lips have a tendency to warp and crack during the drying and firing process. The larger the pot, the more importance a pronounced rim becomes to its successful completion.

From an aesthetic point of view, pronounced rims work a lot like the feet. They are used to add or shift the optical weight of the pot. Another function is to convey a sense of stability. Again, the use of horizontal lines in the composition.

Heavy, squared rims (like the one in your photo) denote strength and masculinity. While a rounded rim tends to create a softer more feminine feel in a pot.

If the character of a pot has already been well defined by its other characteristics (feet, banding, shape etc.) there is really no need for a well defined rim or lip.

I hope this is helpful.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[JudyB]

Thanks again for taking your time to teach at pot school Paul, it's much appreciated.

Can you show us a few examples of different rims, and lips? And where is the line between a band and a lip?

And it seems like sometimes the lip is actually more of an extension of the pot, here is an Erin pot that is all about the lip to me.

 

[pjkatich]

Thanks again for taking your time to teach at pot school Paul, it's much appreciated.

Your welcome Judy.

Can you show us a few examples of different rims, and lips? And where is the line between a band and a lip?

I will put together a few photos for you an post them soon as I can.

You refer to rims and lips as if they are different. Is that the way you see it?

To me, these terms are interchangeable when talking about a ceramic pot. They are referring to the same thing. The top edge of the container.

All pots have a rim. It's just a matter of how the rim is formed that makes the difference in how it is perceived.

And it seems like sometimes the lip is actually more of an extension of the pot, here is an Erin pot that is all about the lip to me.

The rim is always and extension of the pot Judy.

There is no mistaking the character of this pot. From the photo, it's hard to tell if this is an oval or a round pot. Nevertheless, all the other visual elements say one think - masculine. The wide, squared feet, the open form, the heavy rim, and the textured glaze are all masculine characteristics.

When the artist made this pot, he wanted to make sure that there was no mistake about it's character. From my point of view, the heavy rim was used as an exclamation point. There is not doubt that this is a solid, stable pot.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[JudyB]

I knew at some point that terminology would trip me up. To me rims and lips are two different things, but perhaps I am confusing an upper band and lips. If the pot has a sort of bead, but not a outward or inward flair, I think of that (maybe incorrectly) as a rim. If it has some sort of extending bit then I think of it as a lip. So anything at the top of the pot, is a rim, got it.
And all banding is on the sides, yes? Ok, good to know, I am learning!

Thanks!

 

[DougB]

How much of (bonsai/pot) aesthetics is based in our own specific cultures? And a pushing of the accepted limits is also a part of this culture. AND how much of what is aesthetically acceptable is universal across all cultures. Such as perhaps the rule of thirds.

Is this discussion (which is great) culturally specific or universal?

 

[pjkatich]

I knew at some point that terminology would trip me up. To me rims and lips are two different things, but perhaps I am confusing an upper band and lips. If the pot has a sort of bead, but not a outward or inward flair, I think of that (maybe incorrectly) as a rim. If it has some sort of extending bit then I think of it as a lip. So anything at the top of the pot, is a rim, got it.
And all banding is on the sides, yes? Ok, good to know, I am learning!

Thanks!

So, I went to my dictionary on this one Judy.

Rim - "the edge of an object, usually of a circular object;a margin;a border."

Lip - "the rim or edge of any opening or cavity; the flared edge of a container..."

Of coarse there are other meanings of both terms, but these two seem relevant to this discussion.

Semantics aside, I think the term lip has a softer connotation and would indicate a more feminine feel. While the term rim has a stronger connotation and would indicate a more masculine feel. Nevertheless, I think both terms are referring to the same thing and can be used interchangeably.

Beading or banding is always on the side of a pot.

Please bare with me, I am still working on some photos.

Cheers,
Paul

 

[JudyB]

How much of (bonsai/pot) aesthetics is based in our own specific cultures? And a pushing of the accepted limits is also a part of this culture. AND how much of what is aesthetically acceptable is universal across all cultures. Such as perhaps the rule of thirds.

Is this discussion (which is great) culturally specific or universal?

Doug, I do believe that a lot of it is a cultural ideal, especially for those cultures that have long historical discipline in bonsai. For those cultures, it's probably more of a set in stone thing. Whereas, we have such a short (comparative) history with the art, that things can be more open and creative, and yet at the same time more confusing.

Whether the older communities accept this changing and openness is probably dependent on how strong an influence historical meaning holds for the culture.

For most of us here, I don't think that acceptance is necessary, but if something has worked so well for so very long, then there is validity to that acceptance as well.

 

[pjkatich]

How much of (bonsai/pot) aesthetics is based in our own specific cultures? And a pushing of the accepted limits is also a part of this culture. AND how much of what is aesthetically acceptable is universal across all cultures. Such as perhaps the rule of thirds.

Is this discussion (which is great) culturally specific or universal?

Hello Doug,

As I said earlier, pot selection is a very personal thing. To me, that makes the aesthetic aspects and their application very biased.

My viewpoints are based on my understanding of the artistic principles and how I like to apply them.

Line, shape, form, color, and texture are universal concepts and accepted across all cultures. How to apply them in art is not.

Regards,
Paul

 

[pjkatich]

Judy,

Here are a two examples of pots where I used a concave band near the rim.





You can see that the rim does not extend past the profile of the pot. However, the band gives the impression that there is a more pronounced rim on the pot.

Here is an example of a pot that is heavily banded.



What feeling does this pot impart to you"

Paul

 

[JudyB]

Paul,
thanks for those examples.
That feeling that last pot gives me is SOLID. Well grounded, but not in an overly masculine way, if that makes sense.

 

[Smoke]

Judy,


Here is an example of a pot that is heavily banded.

View attachment 42556

What feeling does this pot impart to you"

Paul

BUSY! Show stealer..."hey good looking pot".....

 

[pjkatich]

Paul,
thanks for those examples.
That feeling that last pot gives me is SOLID. Well grounded, but not in an overly masculine way, if that makes sense.

Right on the mark Judy.

This pot has a strong presence as relayed by the wide feet and the vertical sides. However, it is tempered by the rounded bands and the lack of a defined rim. The color combination, light green mixed with brown also echos this same theme. I made this pot years ago when I was a experimenting with the different elements that make up a bonsai container.

What sort of tree would you see in the pot?

Paul

 

[pjkatich]

BUSY! Show stealer..."hey good looking pot".....

Hi Al,

I appreciate the compliment and thanks for adding to the discussion.

Busy - yes. But not in a negative manner I think.

Not sure what you mean by "show stealer". Something positive I hope.

What would you plant in this container?

Cheers,
Paul

 

[pjkatich]

Here are a few pots with different styles of rims.











Tell me what you see as you go from top to bottom.

Paul

 

[ABCarve]

How much of (bonsai/pot) aesthetics is based in our own specific cultures? And a pushing of the accepted limits is also a part of this culture. AND how much of what is aesthetically acceptable is universal across all cultures. Such as perhaps the rule of thirds.

Is this discussion (which is great) culturally specific or universal?

First thing... I'm enjoying pjk's analysis of bonsai pots, but this is bonsai specific. The way I came about this site was looking for bonsai pot info and there was a similar analysis linked to here. I read it and thought OK I'll bite. I'm fairly involved in my local art community and brought the info to them. Some info was pretty much universally agreed on by non-bonsai artists i.e visual weights/stability. Some info could not i.e. masculine/feminine/androgynous traits. I don't get most it myself. The idea of contrast and when to use is important in art. Agreeing what that contrast is can be a mystery.

 

[JudyB]

What sort of tree would you see in the pot?

It took me a while, but I would put a large heavy trunked azalea in this pot. Not sure what color, maybe a white, maybe a salmon/white bloom combo. Azaleas bloom so heavily, that the pot would not be overly competitive for the eye during blooming. And the pot could hold some charm for the tree during the "off" season.

 

[JudyB]

Ok, I'm ready to try this out from top to bottom

(this is hard)
I would say the first one is feminine but is deep so could be a chunky curvy tree

the second one is masculine to me

third femme, the wall angle and shallow and glaze all point to that

fourth - I would say feminine, but the height to width seems chunky so could go a bit masculine, but the glaze and the feet are not.

fifth- masculine? to neutral, I think it's the feet that say that to me.

This is on first look, I wanted to do it quickly, then go back and study it more and see if I can pick up better clues. I will post again if I change my mind. Then I'd love to see how I did!

 

[pjkatich]

Ok, I'm ready to try this out from top to bottom

(this is hard)
I would say the first one is feminine but is deep so could be a chunky curvy tree

the second one is masculine to me

third femme, the wall angle and shallow and glaze all point to that

fourth - I would say feminine, but the height to width seems chunky so could go a bit masculine, but the glaze and the feet are not.

fifth- masculine? to neutral, I think it's the feet that say that to me.

This is on first look, I wanted to do it quickly, then go back and study it more and see if I can pick up better clues. I will post again if I change my mind. Then I'd love to see how I did!

Focus on the rim of each pot and how it affects the visual weight.

The top two are more formal and masculine. Both are level and straight across at the top.

The next two are less formal and softer. Both are rounded over and not as hard as the first two.

You are on the mark with the last pot. It does not have a pronounced rim so the character is defined mainly by the straight sides of the pot.

You are doing well Judy.

Regards,
Paul