Problem with Dutch shop Bonsaï Plaza

[arbo]

Hi,
I think it would be useful to report to you a problem that I just had with the Dutch store Bonsaï Plaza.
I bought a pot from them for more than 400 euros that they were selling for a piece by Reiho ([Matsushita Hiroyuki or Mr.MATSUSHITA Reiji Master).
I receive the pot and, not recognizing the signature, I ask them for an explanation.
They tell me that I'm right, they don't know the author of the pot, the object was simply sold to them in Japan as a Reiho... and that's all.

For me, this is a real labelling con, to say the least.
I am attaching the sticker corresponding to the pot I bought (no longer available), and its signature, in case someone recognizes it.
Still, for a store of their pretension, it’s frankly a shame.

 

[Glaucus]

I've only had good experiences with Bonsai Plaza. You seemed to have made this account just to complain about them.
It is a fair point that maybe they do not check these artistic authenticity better for high-end items.
But the buyer also has a responsbility to make sure that the item they bought actually came from the artist whose work they think you are buying.
In this story, it seems Bonsai Plaza was conned. Unless you got an entirely different pot than the one that was pictured, of course.
Potteries could also easily conterfeint the artist signature/hanko. This is a bit like buying an Van Gogh, not checking the signature yourself, and then complaining you have a nice painting, but it isn't an actual Van Gogh.
That's the risk you are taking as a buyer who wants to pay big bucks for specific artists.

BTW, isn't there a return policy EU-wide for all online sales? You don't say if you asked for a refund and they refused. Is Bonsai Plaza refusing to follow their own sale terms?

 

[arbo]

Je n'ai eu que de bonnes expériences avec Bonsai Plaza. Vous semblez avoir créé ce compte juste pour vous plaindre d'eux.
Il est vrai qu’ils ne vérifient peut-être pas mieux l’authenticité artistique des articles haut de gamme.
Mais l’acheteur a également la responsabilité de s’assurer que l’article qu’il a acheté provient bien de l’artiste dont il pense que vous achetez l’œuvre.
Dans cette histoire, il semble que Bonsai Plaza ait été trompé. À moins que vous ayez un pot complètement différent de celui illustré, bien sûr.
Les poteries pourraient également facilement contrefaire la signature/hanko de l’artiste. C'est un peu comme acheter un Van Gogh, ne pas vérifier la signature vous-même, puis vous plaindre d'avoir un beau tableau, mais ce n'est pas un vrai Van Gogh.
C'est le risque que vous prenez en tant qu'acheteur qui souhaite payer beaucoup d'argent pour des artistes spécifiques.

Par ailleurs, n'existe-t-il pas une politique de retour dans toute l'UE pour toutes les ventes en ligne ? Vous ne dites pas si vous avez demandé un remboursement et qu'ils ont refusé. Bonsai Plaza refuse-t-il de suivre ses propres conditions de vente ?

I've only had good experiences with Bonsai Plaza. You seemed to have made this account just to complain about them.
It is a fair point that maybe they do not check these artistic authenticity better for high-end items.
But the buyer also has a responsbility to make sure that the item they bought actually came from the artist whose work they think you are buying.
In this story, it seems Bonsai Plaza was conned. Unless you got an entirely different pot than the one that was pictured, of course.
Potteries could also easily conterfeint the artist signature/hanko. This is a bit like buying an Van Gogh, not checking the signature yourself, and then complaining you have a nice painting, but it isn't an actual Van Gogh.
That's the risk you are taking as a buyer who wants to pay big bucks for specific artists.

BTW, isn't there a return policy EU-wide for all online sales? You don't say if you asked for a refund and they refused. Is Bonsai Plaza refusing to follow their own sale terms?

I didn't open my account just to complain about Bonsai Plaza!! You also tell me that it's not their fault, that I should check the origin of what I buy myself... and what else,!! I actually checked the signature on the pot, but only after purchasing it, since Bonsaï Plaza does not show it anywhere, for any pot, on its site. For you, is it therefore the customers' fault if they are abused like this? I imagine that the shop have just read about me on Bonsainut, because they are just now offering me a discount of 100 euros or to return the pot (which they didn't do in their first response). This pot meets the need of my tree, I will not return it, but it is not 100 euros more or less that will prevent me from being extremely unhappy with this seller.

 

[Empty Mountain]

Hi,
I think it would be useful to report to you a problem that I just had with the Dutch store Bonsaï Plaza.
I bought a pot from them for more than 400 euros that they were selling for a piece by Reiho ([Matsushita Hiroyuki or Mr.MATSUSHITA Reiji Master).
I receive the pot and, not recognizing the signature, I ask them for an explanation.
They tell me that I'm right, they don't know the author of the pot, the object was simply sold to them in Japan as a Reiho... and that's all.

For me, this is a real labelling con, to say the least.
I am attaching the sticker corresponding to the pot I bought (no longer available), and its signature, in case someone recognizes it.
Still, for a store of their pretension, it’s frankly a shame.

Looks like a "Shizan" chop.

Artist Marks and Hanko-Tokoname

These 3 galleries of Japanese, Chinese, and Tokoname Marks represent the sum total of my signature and chop database. There are over 1000 artist marks here, including the lions share of Antique Chi…

japanesebonsaipots.net

 

[arbo]

Looks like a "Shizan" chop.

Artist Marks and Hanko-Tokoname

These 3 galleries of Japanese, Chinese, and Tokoname Marks represent the sum total of my signature and chop database. There are over 1000 artist marks here, including the lions share of Antique Chi…

japanesebonsaipots.net

Thank you very much! You are right, it's the Shizan stamp. I don't know anything about this potter.

 

[leatherback]

What did Maarten tell you when you asked them to take the item back?

 

[namnhi]

I've only had good experiences with Bonsai Plaza. You seemed to have made this account just to complain about them.
It is a fair point that maybe they do not check these artistic authenticity better for high-end items.
But the buyer also has a responsbility to make sure that the item they bought actually came from the artist whose work they think you are buying.
In this story, it seems Bonsai Plaza was conned. Unless you got an entirely different pot than the one that was pictured, of course.
Potteries could also easily conterfeint the artist signature/hanko. This is a bit like buying an Van Gogh, not checking the signature yourself, and then complaining you have a nice painting, but it isn't an actual Van Gogh.
That's the risk you are taking as a buyer who wants to pay big bucks for specific artists.

BTW, isn't there a return policy EU-wide for all online sales? You don't say if you asked for a refund and they refused. Is Bonsai Plaza refusing to follow their own sale terms?

I disagree with the bolded statement. If the item is not what stated in the item description, then it is the seller problem!

 

[arbo]

What did Maarten tell you when you asked them to take the item back?

I looked for a pot like this and it's the only one that I found suitable for the tree in question and for my personal taste. So I don't want to send it back. I just wish that for the price it was a real Reiho, a renowned potter of whom I would have had great pleasure in owning one of his works. I'm disappointed.

 

[rockm]

this is an odd problem. It's very tough to buy Japanese bonsai pots by chop mark for most buyers. I know I can't tell the marks from one another and have a lot of difficulty IDing them using the often confusing chop mark sites. I buy pots from folks like Matt Ouwinga and other expert sources on containers whom I rely on to ID pots accurately before buying it. Having one labeled inaccurately is bound to happen--from mostly sloppy record keeping--the seller apparently relied on their Japanese buyer, not themselves, to ID the pot and sold it on. Someone SHOULD have made a proper ID before it was sold to a customer. I don't think this was some kind of rip off. I think it was just "not my job" at work in IDing the goods.

I think the seller should accept a return and a refund/exchange from the buyer.

 

[rockm]

I looked for a pot like this and it's the only one that I found suitable for the tree in question and for my personal taste. So I don't want to send it back. I just wish that for the price it was a real Reiho, a renowned potter of whom I would have had great pleasure in owning one of his works. I'm disappointed.

What makes you think the pot isn't as good as a Reiho? Shinzan is apparently pretty decent as well. If you search here:

Security Measure

www.ebay.com

Konno Shinzan pots--

From one of the listings on that site:

'This pot was made by Konno Shinzan. I’ve been collecting his pots for years now. He’s the brother of Sano Daisuke. He made many of the blanks for his brother to paint. Both men, are deceased. I think Shinzan would have been a very well known and famous potter if made more pots for resale instead of his focus on making blanks for his prolific pot painting brother.

His works are well made, have a great sense of depth and appreciation for pottery and overall are just really nice pots.

I’m posting my personal collection of Shinzan pots. Please look around at them. These aren’t so common and aren’t so expensive considering the maker and the quality."

 

[arbo]

Nice pots but I have not understood where I can see your personal collection (I am French, not cleaver in English).

Well, I buy a Degas, i receive a Monet, Is a comparison appropriate? I order a BMW, I receive a Mercedes, is everything okay?
I don't say the pot is not nice. Just I hoped it was a Reiho., maybe it's stupide.

To be honest, the seller just offered me a refund of 100 euros, and I accept it.

 

[leatherback]

So I don't want to send it back. I just wish that for the price it was a real Reiho, a renowned potter

Fair enough. Mistakes are made. If you get a container full of pots, sometimes soemthing slips through.

To be honest, the seller just offered me a refund of 100 euros, and I accept it.

So lesson learned = next time first have a discussion with the seller, and allow them to make up for things go wrong, before staining their reputation online..

 

[leatherback]

For me, this is a real labelling con, to say the least.

I know the owner and his team. I have seen how he deals with customers.
I see absolutely no reason to assume this was on purpose.

 

[arbo]

Fair enough. Mistakes are made. If you get a container full of pots, sometimes soemthing slips through.


So lesson learned = next time first have a discussion with the seller, and allow them to make up for things go wrong, before staining their reputation online..

I will not show you the first message from the seller, but you can believe me, it was not the best way to open any discussion with him!

 

[Glaucus]

So you got the pot you wanted, it just didn't have the hanko you expected, AND 100 euro, and still you make an account here to complain? And in the complaint, you didn't even tell us the whole story?

Yes, ideally the potter listed is correct. I never went down the pottery/cermanics rabbit hole, but the site listed has like 50+ pictures of hanko of different potteries. A seller would need to manually go through each and double check once a shipment comes in from Japan. If Bonsai Plaza just mislabels ordinary pots with higher-end artist hanko's, then you'd have an argument. Mistakes and mislabeling happen in bonsai all the time. Including variaties of bonsai trees themselves. Yes, it is part of the responsibility of an educated buyer to verify niche things like this before spending hundreds of euros. That doesn't nullify the sellers responsiblity. Both are responsible to inform themselves before engaging in a deal. Yes, it was am mistake to list 'Reiho'. But even after you got 100 euro discount, you still call it a 'con' by Bonsai Plaza.
And if you aren't happy with your purchase, there's always a return policy. The one you agreed to when making the sale. But you wanted to keep the pot. So they were rude to you and that's why you post here? I don't get it.

 

[leatherback]

So you got the pot you wanted, it just didn't have the hanko you expected, AND 100 euro, and still you make an account here to complain? And in the complaint, you didn't even tell us the whole story?

Yes, ideally the potter listed is correct. I never went down the pottery/cermanics rabbit hole, but the site listed has like 50+ pictures of hanko of different potteries. A seller would need to manually go through each and double check once a shipment comes in from Japan. If Bonsai Plaza just mislabels ordinary pots with higher-end artist hanko's, then you'd have an argument. Mistakes and mislabeling happen in bonsai all the time. Including variaties of bonsai trees themselves. Yes, it is part of the responsibility of an educated seller to verify niche things like this before spending hundreds of euros. Yes, it was am mistake to list 'Reiho'. But even after you got 100 euro discount, you still call it a 'con' by Bonsai Plaza.
And if you aren't happen, there's always a return policy. But you wanted to keep the pot. So they were rude to you and that's why you post here? I don't get it.

Do not try to understand it...

 

[rockm]

Nice pots but I have not understood where I can see your personal collection (I am French, not cleaver in English).

Well, I buy a Degas, i receive a Monet, Is a comparison appropriate? I order a BMW, I receive a Mercedes, is everything okay?
I don't say the pot is not nice. Just I hoped it was a Reiho., maybe it's stupide.

To be honest, the seller just offered me a refund of 100 euros, and I accept it.

Not my personal collection. It's a primary source of higher-end, mid-level Japanese bonsai pots. and FWIW, these aren't Degas or Monet. They are bonsai pots, the level you're dealing with are pretty comparable in price from what I've seen. The Shinzan may even be better. I've got a few Reiho. They're OK, but mid-level, quality built--which is pretty standard for any decent Japanese bonsai pot.

Using Google translate:

« Ce pot a été fabriqué par Konno Shinzan. Je collectionne ses pots depuis des années maintenant. C'est le frère de Sano Daisuke. Il a réalisé de nombreuses ébauches pour que son frère puisse les peindre. Les deux hommes sont décédés. Je pense que Shinzan aurait été un potier très connu et célèbre s'il avait fabriqué plus de pots pour la revente au lieu de se concentrer sur la fabrication d'ébauches pour son prolifique frère peintre en pot.

Ses œuvres sont bien réalisées, ont un grand sens de la profondeur et une grande appréciation pour la poterie et dans l'ensemble, ce sont de très beaux pots.

Je publie ma collection personnelle de pots Shinzan. S'il vous plaît, regardez-les autour de vous. Ceux-ci ne sont pas si courants et ne sont pas si chers compte tenu du fabricant et de la qualité. »

 

[arbo]

I posted here after I received this message (when I complained about the stamp on the pot):

"Hi,
Thank you fort he mail.

I looked I agree im not sure it if it rehou.

I have bothe the pot in Japan and it was sold to my as Rehou.

I think it is a tokoname pot but I don’t know the maker sorry.

Regards,"

Then, with a good reason to be angry, I posted here.

Only after that, the seller has shown me a more correct attitude.

 

[Glaucus]

Wait, you first said you wouldn't post from your private conversation because 'it was not the best way to open any discussion'.
But now you did exactly that, and there's nothing rude in that message at all.

Unless you mean the spelling errors...

So after you were rude to them/Maarten, then they/he showed a 'more correct attitude'.
The final result is that you got a 400 euro pot for 300 euro, becuase you were rude to the seller.

You got to be kidding me. Maybe post your real name so everyone can be sure never to sell to you.

 

[Paradox]

Google Image Result for https://media.tenor.com/fZ8pdEcuF7QAAAAM/popcorn-eating.gif

Why the hell don't gifs embed right any more?