Propagation of Soft Wood Cuttings

[BiscoDrew]

Those panels may be very good value for money. But I have some issues with buying these. Yes, they are cheap. But 1) they are blurple and 2) the efficiency or PAR values are not listed.

I looked into this a bit and it seems that with technology today, you should definitely go with white light full spectrum LEDs. These are very efficient blue LEDs coated with phosphorus to generate white light. This helps in many ways, including being able to see how your plant looks in semi-normal light.
Second, you really want to know how much light the light produces and how efficiently it does so. Forget lumen or lux completely. What matters is how much photosynthetically useful photons it uses. And the efficiency tells you how much watts it turns into how much PAR.

So say you want to root uttings in a 50 by 50cm area. You need about 400 micromoles of photons per second per square meter in that area. Since you have 0.25 of a square meter, you need a total PAR of 100 micromoles per second of photons. A good value for a cheap LED is 1.5 PAR/watt. So your light should only cost you about 67 watts of power. If you have a high end LED, you pay more for the LED, but the efficiency can go towards 2 PAR/watt. So you'd only need a 50 watt light. And in the long run you will save money on less electricity. If you have a larger area, you need a light that outputs more PAR. If your LED is both low wattage and low efficiency, it will produce a poor light level.
All this also tells you how much area you can cover and how high you should hang your light.

Of course if you just use a light to add a bit to the ambient natural background light, that all is a bit moot. But for most of us it is winter time with short days, so then you do depend on the LED for most of the day.

Since there are so many good and relatively cheap LED lights out there, it makes sense to buy at least a light that gives these numbers publicly.

Wow that's thorough. I'm still ignorant about a lot of this stuff. For just getting into it I figured a little supplemental light couldn't really hurt. I just keep it on when the sun is out and turn it off when it gets dark as not to disrupt any natural cycles.

 

[BiscoDrew]

Wow that's thorough. I'm still ignorant about a lot of this stuff. For just getting into it I figured a little supplemental light couldn't really hurt. I just keep it on when the sun is out and turn it off when it gets dark as not to disrupt any natural cycles.

And with the exception of the ficus and the succulents, everything I'm working with was gathered in my yard so I'm trying to brings my immediate environment indoors as much as possible.

 

[BiscoDrew]

I think my next addition is going to be a humidity gauge. It would be nice if you could just probe the soil to determine if a plant needs watering (I have big fingers, haha).

 

[Harunobu]

Wow that's thorough. I'm still ignorant about a lot of this stuff. For just getting into it I figured a little supplemental light couldn't really hurt. I just keep it on when the sun is out and turn it off when it gets dark as not to disrupt any natural cycles.

It is not really an issue for you. I just think that if you were just looking to buy an LED, buying 4 of those isn't the best idea. You already have your lamp. The downside of your lamp would be that it uses a lot of electricity. But you probably already had it. And you only use it during the day. And it is just 1 lamp for 1 plant, so that is a lot of light.

Controlling humidity indoors is very tricky. Misting it isn't the same as controlling humidity. To do so, you need a tent. If you want to know more, read some of cmeg1's posts. I think he is the person here with the most intricate indoor grow space.

 

[BiscoDrew]

It is not really an issue for you. I just think that if you were just looking to buy an LED, buying 4 of those isn't the best idea. You already have your lamp. The downside of your lamp would be that it uses a lot of electricity. But you probably already had it. And you only use it during the day. And it is just 1 lamp for 1 plant, so that is a lot of light.

Controlling humidity indoors is very tricky. Misting it isn't the same as controlling humidity. To do so, you need a tent. If you want to know more, read some of cmeg1's posts. I think he is the person here with the most intricate indoor grow space.

Good to know. If that's the case are those little humidity balls kind of snake-oily?

 

[HorseloverFat]

Those panels may be very good value for money. But I have some issues with buying these. Yes, they are cheap. But 1) they are blurple and 2) the efficiency or PAR values are not listed.

I looked into this a bit and it seems that with technology today, you should definitely go with white light full spectrum LEDs. These are very efficient blue LEDs coated with phosphorus to generate white light. This helps in many ways, including being able to see how your plant looks in semi-normal light.
Second, you really want to know how much light the light produces and how efficiently it does so. Forget lumen or lux completely. What matters is how much photosynthetically useful photons it uses. And the efficiency tells you how much watts it turns into how much PAR.

So say you want to root uttings in a 50 by 50cm area. You need about 400 micromoles of photons per second per square meter in that area. Since you have 0.25 of a square meter, you need a total PAR of 100 micromoles per second of photons. A good value for a cheap LED is 1.5 PAR/watt. So your light should only cost you about 67 watts of power. If you have a high end LED, you pay more for the LED, but the efficiency can go towards 2 PAR/watt. So you'd only need a 50 watt light. And in the long run you will save money on less electricity. If you have a larger area, you need a light that outputs more PAR. If your LED is both low wattage and low efficiency, it will produce a poor light level.
All this also tells you how much area you can cover and how high you should hang your light.

Of course if you just use a light to add a bit to the ambient natural background light, that all is a bit moot. But for most of us it is winter time with short days, so then you do depend on the LED for most of the day.

Since there are so many good and relatively cheap LED lights out there, it makes sense to buy at least a light that gives these numbers publicly.

You can select the spectrum.

I just HAVE a blue/red one.. but TWO blue/whites..

I agree about the lack of data.. which is why I just bought ONE to try, about a year and a half ago.. i was pleasantly surprised and impressed with the results.. so I kept buying more to fill my needs.
(I believe there are a pretty decent amount of spectrum options.. even “orange” and “green“ and any combination of two, i believe. I have a white/white on the way.)

I was just PERSONALLY vouching for them BECAUSE of the lack pf information.

 

[HorseloverFat]

, read some of cmeg1's posts. I think he is the person here with the most intricate indoor grow space.

This too!!!

 

[Harunobu]

You can select the spectrum.

I just HAVE a blue/red one.. but TWO blue/whites..

I agree about the lack of data.. which is why I just bought ONE to try, about a year and a half ago.. i was pleasantly surprised and impressed with the results.. so I kept buying more to fill my needs.
(I believe there are a pretty decent amount of spectrum options.. even “orange” and “green“ and any combination of two, i believe. I have a white/white on the way.)

I was just PERSONALLY vouching for them BECAUSE of the lack pf information.

Ah, yeah I see there is a white one in the dropdown now. I get that you bought one because it is cheap to try it out, and then bought more of the same because you knew it was what you wanted.
I checked some youtube reviews. Seems this thing is sold under many brand names, 225 LED 45watt. Sadly. no one doing an review actually measured the PAR output. But it draws 35 watts in one video and I suspect the efficiency is 1 to maybe 1.2 micromoles per second per watt. So the total PAR for 4 lights would be 140. So if you want to give plants say 300 micromoles per second per meter, you can only light up a 70 cm by 70 cm area. I suspect this panel does not light up much more than the surface of the panel itself. So use as a supplemental light only, or on seedlings/cuttings with long days.

For the same money I'd buy a Mars Hydro TS600. That will draw about 100 watt of power and give an efficiency of 1.7 or so micromoles per joule. So a total PAR of 170. So it gives more light, uses less power. This is also the TS1000 model with 150 watt. Or even better and more efficient things like Viparspectra P1000 or an Aponuo '1000'watt (actually 130w).
I expect there could be 50 or 75 watt LEDs with an efficiency above 1.8 micromoles per joule our there soon. Those would be ideal for the OP.

All these new LED panels are referred to as 'quantum boards' and they are all passively cooled by being build using aluminum. The old LED panels used to be entirely plastic and they had cooling fans. A panel that is plastic with so many LEDs but no passive or active cooling either means it doesn't draw any power, and therefore produces not so much light, or that it gets too hot. So in 2021, I would not recommend people buy those, unless you find a youtube review that does measure their efficiency/light output, and it turns to to be good.

I suspect the mercury vapor light is in the 0.8 to 1.0 micromoles per joule range. So it should give enough light to illuminate a grow area of about 45 by 45 cm. More than enough for just one plant. But make sure the cutting does not get too hot. That's quite a big light for one plant. And it is one that generates quite a bit of heat.

Actually about the 'utrathin 225 LED' model, it seems to be a newer model. I saw many old thick 225 LED boards. So I suspect that also means it has a higher efficiency, maybe 1.2 to 1.4 micromoles/joule? No way to be sure, though.

 

[BiscoDrew]

Ah, yeah I see there is a white one in the dropdown now. I get that you bought one because it is cheap to try it out, and then bought more of the same because you knew it was what you wanted.
I checked some youtube reviews. Seems this thing is sold under many brand names, 225 LED 45watt. Sadly. no one doing an review actually measured the PAR output. But it draws 35 watts in one video and I suspect the efficiency is 1 to maybe 1.2 micromoles per second per watt. So the total PAR for 4 lights would be 140. So if you want to give plants say 300 micromoles per second per meter, you can only light up a 70 cm by 70 cm area. I suspect this panel does not light up much more than the surface of the panel itself. So use as a supplemental light only, or on seedlings/cuttings with long days.

For the same money I'd buy a Mars Hydro TS600. That will draw about 100 watt of power and give an efficiency of 1.7 or so micromoles per joule. So a total PAR of 170. So it gives more light, uses less power. This is also the TS1000 model with 150 watt. Or even better and more efficient things like Viparspectra P1000 or an Aponuo.
I expect there could be 50 or 75 watt LEDs with an efficiency above 1.8 micromoles per joule our there soon. Those would be ideal for the OP.

All these new LED panels are referred to as 'quantum boards' and they are all passively cooled by being build using aluminum. The old LED panels used to be entirely plastic and they had cooling fans. A panel that is plastic with so many LEDs but no passive or active cooling either means it doesn't draw any power, and therefore produces not so much light, or that it gets too hot. So in 2021, I would not recommend people buy those, unless you find a youtube review that does measure their efficiency/light output, and it turns to to be good.

I suspect the mercury vapor light is in the 0.8 to 1.0 micromoles per joule range. So it should give enough light to illuminate a grow area of about 45 by 45 cm. More than enough for just one plant. But make sure the cutting does not get too hot. That's quite a big light for one plant. And it is one that generates quite a bit of heat.

My temp probe is reading consistently between 70 and 74 F for the area, hopefully that's good.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

One can wonder though, what would economically be more viable; buying a bunch of 10 dollar cuttings or spending hundreds on a suboptimal indoor setting.

I've spent hundreds on suboptimal indoor settings four times. I now have a LED cabinet that I'm not using at all.
Instead, I buy 50 dollars worth of juniper cuttings that I keep outdoors and I make my own cuttings in summer.

Not that I want to ruin the party, but I like being realistic: I haven't been able to root junipers indoors with perfect conditions and I don't know anyone that did. Spider mites, scale, fungal issues, soil or DWC, it just didn't work. I would love others to be succesful, but it takes a certain skill and knowledge base that can take months to gather. By that time, it's spring.

 

[HorseloverFat]

One can wonder though, what would economically be more viable; buying a bunch of 10 dollar cuttings or spending hundreds on a suboptimal indoor setting.

I've spent hundreds on suboptimal indoor settings four times. I now have a LED cabinet that I'm not using at all.
Instead, I buy 50 dollars worth of juniper cuttings that I keep outdoors and I make my own cuttings in summer.

Not that I want to ruin the party, but I like being realistic: I haven't been able to root junipers indoors with perfect conditions and I don't know anyone that did. Spider mites, scale, fungal issues, soil or DWC, it just didn't work. I would love others to be succesful, but it takes a certain skill and knowledge base that can take months to gather. By that time, it's spring.

This is a great way of thinking about this. Love it! I totally have the mentioned situation(s) occurring.

For me... my Regarded “Winter” is 4-5 months. (Kind of a joke.. kind of serious) So my indoor area, as well as “cold-frame” options are a huge component in my “growing seasons”... so I’ve had to “piece together” what “works” or “as I can obtain” to meet my needs... it’s tricky gaining harmony with so many variables.

 

[HorseloverFat]

My temp probe is reading consistently between 70 and 74 F for the area, hopefully that's good.

When I do temperate cuttings.. and I used to use “underheat” more often.. I would aim for 68... not sure if more is bad... probably not bad in the temp range you are describing... (But I’m not positive of that)

Also.. I’ve found that, while rooting cuttings indoors, I had much success (as most others have) with extended “daylight”.. I have my entire room on 17/7... others have similar ideas... the numbers will change.. but not too much.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

This is a great way of thinking about this. Love it! I totally have the mentioned situation(s) occurring.

For me... my Regarded “Winter” is 4-5 months. (Kind of a joke.. kind of serious) So my indoor area, as well as “cold-frame” options are a huge component in my “growing seasons”... so I’ve had to “piece together” what “works” or “as I can obtain” to meet my needs... it’s tricky gaining harmony with so many variables.

I get it man, we have long winters/breaks here too. But in all honesty, without a closed system or a closed and regulated environment, you're fighting a tsunami with a tennis racket. You might catch an accidental fish every now and then, but the effort vs. reward is kind of skewed.
Those weed growers have tried it for decades, and they either made entire rooms into closed systems, or they started using climate controlled tents or cabinets. All the rest was just.. An effort.

With improper lighting your plants will end up with long internodes, an allergy to sunlight (they will burn when placed outdoors without a 2 month transition period) and there's a point where 'cutting back hard' just doesn't fix things anymore. A heap of pests like thrips and spider mites (most of which will end up being resistant to insecticides due to prolonged exposure at the source, like garden centers and stores) and possibly fungal/mold issues in your own home can be a result too.

I'm all in favor of reinventing the wheel, tires and everything else. I do however have to note that there's some 40+ years of experience of indoor growing out there on the web, and most of it failed miserably because a simple light and some fans and humidifyers just wasn't enough. Of course, tropicals are a nice exception, but they do well in almost any environment.
I too love growing stuff indoors and I have a working system now, but it's still just limping along compared to the stuff that cmeg uses for instance. I'm cool with that. I have some figs, some birch and alder cuttings and some plum and cherry on the window sill. I know there's a 80-95% chance they will die before they ever get to see the great outdoors again. That's why I put in zero effort and zero money.
With some 500 dollars I could build a nice cabinet, climate regulated and all, some high powered LED's (and yes, those cheap flood lights do work, cool white!) but over time I've spent 10 times that amount on trying to "fix and improve" a terrible system. Started with hardware store CFL's, then LED, then back to cannabis CFL's, then to T-5 neon lights, then back to LED.. Air filtration systems, foggers, humidifiers, dehumidifiers, temperature loggers, controllers, heat mats, all to find out that I have spent waaaaay to much to try and fix something that was flawed by design and mostly my own stubbornness.
I'd like people to see that lesson before they learn it themselves. It's an expensive one ;-)

 

[HorseloverFat]

I get it man, we have long winters/breaks here too. But in all honesty, without a closed system or a closed and regulated environment, you're fighting a tsunami with a tennis racket. You might catch an accidental fish every now and then, but the effort vs. reward is kind of skewed.
Those weed growers have tried it for decades, and they either made entire rooms into closed systems, or they started using climate controlled tents or cabinets. All the rest was just.. An effort.

With improper lighting your plants will end up with long internodes, an allergy to sunlight (they will burn when placed outdoors without a 2 month transition period) and there's a point where 'cutting back hard' just doesn't fix things anymore. A heap of pests like thrips and spider mites (most of which will end up being resistant to insecticides due to prolonged exposure at the source, like garden centers and stores) and possibly fungal/mold issues in your own home can be a result too.

I'm all in favor of reinventing the wheel, tires and everything else. I do however have to note that there's some 40+ years of experience of indoor growing out there on the web, and most of it failed miserably because a simple light and some fans and humidifyers just wasn't enough. Of course, tropicals are a nice exception, but they do well in almost any environment.
I too love growing stuff indoors and I have a working system now, but it's still just limping along compared to the stuff that cmeg uses for instance. I'm cool with that. I have some figs, some birch and alder cuttings and some plum and cherry on the window sill. I know there's a 80-95% chance they will die before they ever get to see the great outdoors again. That's why I put in zero effort and zero money.
With some 500 dollars I could build a nice cabinet, climate regulated and all, some high powered LED's (and yes, those cheap flood lights do work, cool white!) but over time I've spent 10 times that amount on trying to "fix and improve" a terrible system. Started with hardware store CFL's, then LED, then back to cannabis CFL's, then to T-5 neon lights, then back to LED.. Air filtration systems, foggers, humidifiers, dehumidifiers, temperature loggers, controllers, heat mats, all to find out that I have spent waaaaay to much to try and fix something that was flawed by design and mostly my own stubbornness.
I'd like people to see that lesson before they learn it themselves. It's an expensive one ;-)

Exactly.. it seems like it will always be somewhat of a battle.. because the simple fact IS.. it is unnatural. ..

I will not really expand my “indoor endeavors” beyond what I have going.. which IS a room for themselves, a couple fans, couple humidifiers, arranged “hodgepodge” of lights dropped close.. yadda-yadda. similar “crap”.. lol..
But in March-April they all go out to play....

Gotta get the most out of NON-winter.
(Picture taken WAY before the snow! )

 

[leatherback]

Not that I want to ruin the party, but I like being realistic: I haven't been able to root junipers indoors with perfect conditions and I don't know anyone that did. Spider mites, scale, fungal issues, soil or DWC, it just didn't work. I would love others to be succesful, but it takes a certain skill and knowledge base that can take months to gather. By that time, it's spring.

Exactly. Why do you want to do this indoors?
I am really surprised by the number of people wanting to do this the hard way.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Exactly. Why do you want to do this indoors?
I am really surprised by the number of people wanting to do this the hard way.

I’m attempting a tray of hardwood juniperus cuttings outdoors over winter... I don’t really do any cuttings indoors unless it’s from species that would already be in there. I probably should have prefaced that in the details of my experiences.

 

[Carol 83]

Those panels may be very good value for money. But I have some issues with buying these. Yes, they are cheap. But 1) they are blurple and 2) the efficiency or PAR values are not listed.

I looked into this a bit and it seems that with technology today, you should definitely go with white light full spectrum LEDs. These are very efficient blue LEDs coated with phosphorus to generate white light. This helps in many ways, including being able to see how your plant looks in semi-normal light.
Second, you really want to know how much light the light produces and how efficiently it does so. Forget lumen or lux completely. What matters is how much photosynthetically useful photons it uses. And the efficiency tells you how much watts it turns into how much PAR.

So say you want to root uttings in a 50 by 50cm area. You need about 400 micromoles of photons per second per square meter in that area. Since you have 0.25 of a square meter, you need a total PAR of 100 micromoles per second of photons. A good value for a cheap LED is 1.5 PAR/watt. So your light should only cost you about 67 watts of power. If you have a high end LED, you pay more for the LED, but the efficiency can go towards 2 PAR/watt. So you'd only need a 50 watt light. And in the long run you will save money on less electricity. If you have a larger area, you need a light that outputs more PAR. If your LED is both low wattage and low efficiency, it will produce a poor light level.
All this also tells you how much area you can cover and how high you should hang your light.

Of course if you just use a light to add a bit to the ambient natural background light, that all is a bit moot. But for most of us it is winter time with short days, so then you do depend on the LED for most of the day.

Since there are so many good and relatively cheap LED lights out there, it makes sense to buy at least a light that gives these numbers publicly.

I switched to the white LED's from the blurple ones and it has made a huge difference in growth. Plus, they are much easier on the eyes and the neighbors don't think I'm growing weed.

 

[BiscoDrew]

One can wonder though, what would economically be more viable; buying a bunch of 10 dollar cuttings or spending hundreds on a suboptimal indoor setting.

I've spent hundreds on suboptimal indoor settings four times. I now have a LED cabinet that I'm not using at all.
Instead, I buy 50 dollars worth of juniper cuttings that I keep outdoors and I make my own cuttings in summer.

Not that I want to ruin the party, but I like being realistic: I haven't been able to root junipers indoors with perfect conditions and I don't know anyone that did. Spider mites, scale, fungal issues, soil or DWC, it just didn't work. I would love others to be succesful, but it takes a certain skill and knowledge base that can take months to gather. By that time, it's spring.

It's not like I HAVE to do this indoors. I just didn't know if the freezing temperatures would hurt or hinder. This is all just an experiment anyway, I won't lose anything by trying my luck. I'd just as soon learn by doing as well as from others' experience.

 

[Harunobu]

I have no experience with rooting junipers. Apparently, it is very hard and maybe that means one should just let the professionals take care of that. But if one is dead-set on doing this themselves then wouldn't it make sense to do so inside rather than outside? Wouldn't doing it inside be the easy, but maybe expensive, way?

I only root azaleas, but so far I have had much better results inside than outside. Being able to keep night temperatures up and being able to have long days and control the light intensity seems like big pusses to me. Even more so if they are (semi-) hardwood cuttings. The title of this thread says 'softwood'.

So the OP's cutting (likely) already rooted, and this is about overwintering and getting more growth going? That is something you can only do inside, of course. One can always say, 'Just buy an older/larger/more mature plant from a nursery next spring' and yes sometimes that is more convinient. But it may be about the journey itself, not just the goal, for some people.