Pumice as substrate..

[rockm]

How do you find these types of products? Beyond home depot or walmart (and NAPA for my 8822 DE!) there's nowhere I know of to get these types of things....obviously you're not in my area but I just mean how do you find places 'like' a 'TCC Products'? I imagine it's a type of wholesaler/building-supplier or something? I'd really like to find something better for some of my aggregates, for instance w/ scoria I manually process it from 'lava-rock-mulch' bags, smash & sieve to 2 grades (~1mmm and ~2-7mm grades) It's (obviously) a major PITA, and with DE the only stuff I know how to get is the NAPA product which is poor quality in terms of particle-size (I get very little 'great' particle size, those bags are mostly smaller-sized pieces and tons of fines), would love to find a 'stone dealer' but the only one I've ever been able to locate on google-maps was a real underwhelming place (scoria 'smalls' are only obtainable if the pallet is close to empty otherwise it's the same size as standard scoria mulching rocks)

Would love knowing what terms to search for, or what professions/niches these types of suppliers cater to, so that I may get lucky enough to find another nearby who's got what I'm looking for!! (am aware that sized product is available online it's just too over-priced IMO!)

Have you contacted your local bonsai club for stuff like this? They are the best source of information on how to get stuff like this locally. If you're not taking advantage of club info you're re-inventing the wheel. Even if you don't join or even attend a meeting, you can call the club and ask. Some even have resource listings on their web pages...

 

[River's Edge]

How do you find these types of products? Beyond home depot or walmart (and NAPA for my 8822 DE!) there's nowhere I know of to get these types of things....obviously you're not in my area but I just mean how do you find places 'like' a 'TCC Products'? I imagine it's a type of wholesaler/building-supplier or something? I'd really like to find something better for some of my aggregates, for instance w/ scoria I manually process it from 'lava-rock-mulch' bags, smash & sieve to 2 grades (~1mmm and ~2-7mm grades) It's (obviously) a major PITA, and with DE the only stuff I know how to get is the NAPA product which is poor quality in terms of particle-size (I get very little 'great' particle size, those bags are mostly smaller-sized pieces and tons of fines), would love to find a 'stone dealer' but the only one I've ever been able to locate on google-maps was a real underwhelming place (scoria 'smalls' are only obtainable if the pallet is close to empty otherwise it's the same size as standard scoria mulching rocks)

Would love knowing what terms to search for, or what professions/niches these types of suppliers cater to, so that I may get lucky enough to find another nearby who's got what I'm looking for!! (am aware that sized product is available online it's just too over-priced IMO!)

I use Google. The best products are those that are produced in large quantity for industrial purposes. Drilling companies use various sands and aggregate materials. Concrete companies use various components for a variety of products. Landscape companies purchase and stock various aggregates. For example, if you type in TCC to Google you will find that it is an aggregate supply company for industry. You can then check their distribution locations. From a distributor you can source retail locations and or competitors products. Labels will tell you the manufacturer and likely location, contact information. Getting the cost down usually means buying in bulk and choosing a product that is similar but closer to you in where it is manufactured and or sourced. Pumice can sell retail for $12.00 a bag, half that if purchased by the pallet, half again if purchased in bulk, unbagged and unscreened for size.
It takes a bit of time and reasoning. The key is like playing the game "Where is Waldo". It helps if you know what "Waldo" looks like. It also helps if you know where " Waldo " hangs out.

 

[River's Edge]

Have you contacted your local bonsai club for stuff like this? They are the best source of information on how to get stuff like this locally. If you're not taking advantage of club info you're re-inventing the wheel. Even if you don't join or even attend a meeting, you can call the club and ask. Some even have resource listings on their web pages...

This is great advice and the simplest first steps. Also, often the local clubs buy as a group to reduce cost and simplify transportation of bulk or heavier products.

 

[River's Edge]

I use Google. The best products are those that are produced in large quantity for industrial purposes. Drilling companies use various sands and aggregate materials. Concrete companies use various components for a variety of products. Landscape companies purchase and stock various aggregates. For example, if you type in TCC to Google you will find that it is an aggregate supply company for industry. You can then check their distribution locations. From a distributor you can source retail locations and or competitors products. Labels will tell you the manufacturer and likely location, contact information. Getting the cost down usually means buying in bulk and choosing a product that is similar but closer to you in where it is manufactured and or sourced. Pumice can sell retail for $12.00 a bag, half that if purchased by the pallet, half again if purchased in bulk, unbagged and unscreened for size.
It takes a bit of time and reasoning. The key is like playing the game "Where is Waldo". It helps if you know what "Waldo" looks like. It also helps if you know where " Waldo " hangs out.

I should have added that going to talk to a local supplier in person is far more effective than just sourcing online. Get the basic information first, then when you know what products to ask about, go down to the local supplier and ask their advice. Yes, i know it is old fashioned, but it gets better results. Most people will not take the time to do this and therefore they can only share with you the same information that everyone else has that did not take the time. Do not expect to save money on a product buying small personal quantities.

 

[SU2]

Have you contacted your local bonsai club for stuff like this? They are the best source of information on how to get stuff like this locally. If you're not taking advantage of club info you're re-inventing the wheel. Even if you don't join or even attend a meeting, you can call the club and ask. Some even have resource listings on their web pages...

I've gone to one of their meetings (when adam lavigne was doing a demo/workshop) and while I didn't ask I don't get the impression any of them are making their own substrates the way I do (ie they all seemed to use pre-mix stuff) but you're right it's certainly worth trying harder in that way!

 

[SU2]

I use Google. The best products are those that are produced in large quantity for industrial purposes. Drilling companies use various sands and aggregate materials. Concrete companies use various components for a variety of products. Landscape companies purchase and stock various aggregates. For example, if you type in TCC to Google you will find that it is an aggregate supply company for industry. You can then check their distribution locations. From a distributor you can source retail locations and or competitors products. Labels will tell you the manufacturer and likely location, contact information. Getting the cost down usually means buying in bulk and choosing a product that is similar but closer to you in where it is manufactured and or sourced. Pumice can sell retail for $12.00 a bag, half that if purchased by the pallet, half again if purchased in bulk, unbagged and unscreened for size.
It takes a bit of time and reasoning. The key is like playing the game "Where is Waldo". It helps if you know what "Waldo" looks like. It also helps if you know where " Waldo " hangs out.

Dude, awesome!! Thanks this is precisely the line of thinking I was hoping for, I've found 1 place that's like this but it's not particularly useful unfortunately (pumice only in large, expensive blocks; scoria in normal size at 25% more expensive than big-box stores, etc)

Will check into TCC (and see if I can find comparable entities) so I can find other distributors like the one I've found but actually do have what I need!

 

[rockm]

I've gone to one of their meetings (when adam lavigne was doing a demo/workshop) and while I didn't ask I don't get the impression any of them are making their own substrates the way I do (ie they all seemed to use pre-mix stuff) but you're right it's certainly worth trying harder in that way!

You know what they say about assuming things...Bet there are multiple members making their own soil..

 

[SU2]

You know what they say about assuming things...Bet there are multiple members making their own soil..

touche

Am first going to try @Riversedgebonsai 's approach of going it alone because my local club is a once a month thing and it's every 3rd saturday so just missed it for this month :/ I've already found 1 'commercial distributor' but they just didn't have what I needed, am thinking that if I find another one or two I'll find *something*

 

[rockm]

don't really get that. All you have to do is pick up a phone and call a club officer. You're pretty much wasting you effort. I can assure the legwork you're doing has already been done and probably with sharper results, as the resource list has been established over time. If you're calling distributors, why can't you call a club officer?

 

[SU2]

don't really get that. All you have to do is pick up a phone and call a club officer. You're pretty much wasting you effort. I can assure the legwork you're doing has already been done and probably with sharper results, as the resource list has been established over time. If you're calling distributors, why can't you call a club officer?

Honestly I kind of feel rude doing so because I couldn't afford the club and was gifted a session once, would be kind of embarrassed lol but upon reading your post you're right and I'm being dumb about it, will go through whatever club contacts I can find before trying wholesalers - can't hurt, it's not like I can afford to join the club so unlikely I'll be seeing the people again anyways ;p

Thanks

 

[SU2]

Off-topic but given the thread's nature I wanted to share an infographic I just found that I really liked and think others who'd click a thread like this would as well

 

[andrewiles]

This is a helpful old thread. I wanted to add one more bit of, maybe, interesting observations.

Two weeks ago I ran a little experiment to understand how the size of the pumice particles in a soil mix impacted water retention. I expected that smaller sizes would mean more surface area and greater water retention.

I used 3 pint-sized nursery containers to hold an equivalent volume of pumice, one for each sifted size. On Day 1 I soaked in water for 4 hours to maximize the water content, then allowed to drain before weighing. Subsequent days the containers were outside in part-sun, with temps in the 70s/80s. On Day 8 and Day 10 I drenched briefly (no soak).



I was a bit surprised at how long some amount of water was retained, even in these small containers, after 7 days.

But most surprisingly I saw no difference in water holding capacity and retention based on particle size. All 3 held the same amount of water and lost it at the same rate.

 

[August44]

This is a helpful old thread. I wanted to add one more bit of, maybe, interesting observations.

Two weeks ago I ran a little experiment to understand how the size of the pumice particles in a soil mix impacted water retention. I expected that smaller sizes would mean more surface area and greater water retention.

I used 3 pint-sized nursery containers to hold an equivalent volume of pumice, one for each sifted size. On Day 1 I soaked in water for 4 hours to maximize the water content, then allowed to drain before weighing. Subsequent days the containers were outside in part-sun, with temps in the 70s/80s. On Day 8 and Day 10 I drenched briefly (no soak).

View attachment 395221

I was a bit surprised at how long some amount of water was retained, even in these small containers, after 7 days.

But most surprisingly I saw no difference in water holding capacity and retention based on particle size. All 3 held the same amount of water and lost it at the same rate.

Interesting...why would the weight go up on all of them on the 8th and 10th day do you think? Did you have high humidity on those days?

 

[andrewiles]

I watered on those two days, see my original description above the image. But only briefly with a hose, not the 4 hour soak on day 1.

It looks like a single quick drench gets them to roughly 2/3rds water holding capacity vs. a long soak.

 

[Colorado]

This is a helpful old thread. I wanted to add one more bit of, maybe, interesting observations.

Two weeks ago I ran a little experiment to understand how the size of the pumice particles in a soil mix impacted water retention. I expected that smaller sizes would mean more surface area and greater water retention.

I used 3 pint-sized nursery containers to hold an equivalent volume of pumice, one for each sifted size. On Day 1 I soaked in water for 4 hours to maximize the water content, then allowed to drain before weighing. Subsequent days the containers were outside in part-sun, with temps in the 70s/80s. On Day 8 and Day 10 I drenched briefly (no soak).

View attachment 395221

I was a bit surprised at how long some amount of water was retained, even in these small containers, after 7 days.

But most surprisingly I saw no difference in water holding capacity and retention based on particle size. All 3 held the same amount of water and lost it at the same rate.

This is an interesting experiment. Nice.