Randy knight

So, to sum it all up...

I have no self respect if I create a Phoenix graft,

A murderer if I buy an Imported or collected kishu/shimpaku juniper,

Or doomed to spend a very long time to create the rarest of all junipers.



So we are back where we started.

Shohin size kishu or shimpaku.
Exactly...if your goal is to please everyone but you. You're doomed there too, so it may be best to build a collection you can enjoy and successfully maintain; seeking fewer opinions of people who will never visit your back yard.
 
Exactly...if your goal is to please everyone but you. You're doomed there too, so it may be best to build a collection you can enjoy and successfully maintain; seeking fewer opinions of people who will never visit your back yard.
The exact reason I have no problem making a Phoenix graft.
 
I also find Adair's easy-peezy comment just as ludicrous...if its sooo easy don't you think he, and everyone else, should have a backyard full of collected/ dug junipers that have been grafted with shimpaku and ready to go to into a national level exhibition?? If you care to take note...trees like that are even more rare than those collected from the mountains...easy-peazy right!!

Ah, the limitations of Internet forums!

Johng's, I was being sarcastic! He had made some comment about making a Phoenix Graft, or grafting on some foliage... I know it's ridiculously hard to do!

I don't think the OP does, however. I totally agree with your comments about growing things that do well in your own climate.

Sorry you missed the sarcasm. I was trying for ludicrous!
 
So, to sum it all up...

I have no self respect if I create a Phoenix graft,

A murderer if I buy an Imported or collected kishu/shimpaku juniper,

Or doomed to spend a very long time to create the rarest of all junipers.



So we are back where we started.

Shohin size kishu or shimpaku.
Actually, those species would probably do well

It's the one from the mountains where it's less humid that you would have trouble with.
 
Ah, the limitations of Internet forums!

Johng's, I was being sarcastic! He had made some comment about making a Phoenix Graft, or grafting on some foliage... I know it's ridiculously hard to do!

I don't think the OP does, however. I totally agree with your comments about growing things that do well in your own climate.

Sorry you missed the sarcasm. I was trying for ludicrous!


I suspected as much and almost added something about the possibility... you typically "hear" sarcasm...its more difficult to read it...
 
The exact reason I have no problem making a Phoenix graft.
Then by all means, go do it, and without seeking approval or permission here first.
For that matter, plant it in a vacuum cleaner if the mood strikes.
But it you post it here and ask for feedback, be ready to accept what comes.
 
I also would love to have a collected/imported juniper or pine. Haven't found anything yet though.

I do strongly believe that I could handle a small collected juniper, similar to the one that Eric had displayed at the cup. When he bought it, not how it looks now obviously. Not a 1,000 year old mass of deadwood but something small and elegant with nice lines and some deadwood.

Is it unreasonable to believe so?
It is a bit unreasonable. Your climate is a big issue. Western conifers (with the exception of Ponderosa pine) have a difficult time adjusting to the humidity and wet of eastern summers and the wetter winters--precipitation in the high deserts and elevations out west falls, and stays, as snow). Here in the east, we get freeze, thaw, cold rain, melting snow all winter. It's tough on roots not used to all that moisture.

Most western conifer species evolved in climates that are extremely cold and arid, or extremely hot and arid. The National Arboretum in Washington has had big problems with Western collected junipers in particular. They almost lost some notable California juniper bonsai basically because there is too much rain and humidity in D.C.in the summer.

Size has absolutely nothing to do with a tree surviving, well, I take that back. Smaller trees with smaller root masses are the first to die off. There is less room for error the smaller you get with bonsai. A smaller tree is more apt to die because of a watering mistake than a larger one--not as many roots and not as much soil in smaller pots.
 
You do know your stuff, rockm. Sorry for the little dust up earlier.
No problem. Been meaning to apologize. Made those posts when it had been raining hard for a week and the damn ceiling on my house had sprung a leak...
 
It is a bit unreasonable. Your climate is a big issue. Western conifers (with the exception of Ponderosa pine) have a difficult time adjusting to the humidity and wet of eastern summers and the wetter winters--precipitation in the high deserts and elevations out west falls, and stays, as snow). Here in the east, we get freeze, thaw, cold rain, melting snow all winter. It's tough on roots not used to all that moisture.

Most western conifer species evolved in climates that are extremely cold and arid, or extremely hot and arid. The National Arboretum in Washington has had big problems with Western collected junipers in particular. They almost lost some notable California juniper bonsai basically because there is too much rain and humidity in D.C.in the summer.

Size has absolutely nothing to do with a tree surviving, well, I take that back. Smaller trees with smaller root masses are the first to die off. There is less room for error the smaller you get with bonsai. A smaller tree is more apt to die because of a watering mistake than a larger one--not as many roots and not as much soil in smaller pots.

Why can you people not get it out of your skull that I was not talking about buying a western juniper?

I should not have mentioned Eric's tree. I admire that tree very much and all I was saying is I want a similar tree in terms of design and size, not species.

I have more or less been in search of an Imported/ground grown shimpku or kishu but would also accept a collected juniper to graft myself as well.


You make a valid point about size. I originally wanted a small to medium size tree strictly because they are easier to handle; however, I currently have no large trees so maybe it would be a nice change of pace to buy a large tree.


I did not know ponderous would do well here.
 
Why can you people not get it out of your skull that I was not talking about buying a western juniper?

I should not have mentioned Eric's tree. I admire that tree very much and all I was saying is I want a similar tree in terms of design and size, not species.

I have more or less been in search of an Imported/ground grown shimpku or kishu but would also accept a collected juniper to graft myself as well.


You make a valid point about size. I originally wanted a small to medium size tree strictly because they are easier to handle; however, I currently have no large trees so maybe it would be a nice change of pace to buy a large tree.


I did not know ponderous would do well here.

Err. um, my skull says that you said "collected/imported juniper or pine."

FWIW, unless you're grafting shimpaku ROOTS onto a collected juniper, you're still working with collected juniper and since junipers are mostly collected out west, you're talking about a western collected tree.

Also, don't know if you've looked into importing a decent juniper from Japan, or Taiwan, but they're usually more expensive and sometimes as iffy as a collected one, if they are just off the boat.
 
[QUOTE="JoeR, post: 289774, member: 17247


I did not know ponderous would do well here.[/QUOTE]

I'll personally never bother with a collected western pine, including Ponderosa, as long as I live in the SE. I was told by Rodney Clemons that they don't do well here, so I only brought one with me from MA, and I got to watch it weaken and die over 4 seasons. I believe Adair has one, but he lives an hour north of me in the GA mountains, and I bet he wouldn't say his tree is thriving. I believe there are some collected pines in Asheville, NC, but the additional elevation and more Northern latitude gives them a solid zone 6 winter and cooler mountain summers, which is what they need.
 
I have had one for several years. I believe my winters are juuust strong enough for it to get by. I leave it unprotected on the bench all winter. It's not doing spectacularly, but it's not doing badly.
 
I have had one for several years. I believe my winters are juuust strong enough for it to get by. I leave it unprotected on the bench all winter. It's not doing spectacularly, but it's not doing badly.
I've heard they do ok in DC and I know that some folks do well with them in Eastern TN. I've just never seen one from GA or the Carolinas that's lasted for more then a few years...and that's ok as I'm not really into Ponderosas anymore and probably wouldn't keep them even if I lived in a more northerly location. They've got great bark and deadwood for pines, but the best PP bonsai have to be BIG for the needles to look acceptable and I already have enough big trees in pots:).
 
Western conifers (with the exception of Ponderosa pine) have a difficult time adjusting to the humidity and wet of eastern summers and the wetter winters--precipitation in the high deserts and elevations out west falls, and stays, as snow). Here in the east, we get freeze, thaw, cold rain, melting snow all winter. It's tough on roots not used to all that moisture.
  • All that high humidity does (directly) is reduce the tree's rat of transpiration and the rate of evaporation directly from the media --> use a coarser mix. Ditto for the direct effects of lots of rain.
  • Indirectly, high humidity may mean increased risk of fungal and/or mold trouble --> antifugal applications.
  • Many conifers, and most famously, Douglas firs have bud chilling requirements. In the net, less new foliage is produced insuffiecient chilling hours, so the tree progressively looses foliage until it finally dies after several seasons.
So how is it that you know that satisfying bud chill requirements isn't really the problem?
 
Oso, it really doesn't matter why they don't do well here in the Southeast. Many have tried. Not worth the risk.

My Pondy is living. I can't say it's thriving. I want it to back bud more. Right now, I'm just trying to get it strong.

To the OP:

If you want a ground grown Kishu or Shimpaku, contact Jim Gremel. The same guy who makes the wire. He has them.
 
I skipped a lot of this, but I just confirmed, wives like live wood better than deadwood.

Seriously. In the time it takes to BS yourself into believing a tanuki, you could find a reasonable tree in your price range.

There be a mathematical equation to figure how much you gotta save a day before that tanuki gets convincing.

Plus selling cuttings!

It's just cuz I like you JoeR!

Sorce



 
Oso, it really doesn't matter why they don't do well here in the Southeast. Many have tried. Not worth the risk.

My Pondy is living. I can't say it's thriving. I want it to back bud more. Right now, I'm just trying to get it strong.

To the OP:

If you want a ground grown Kishu or Shimpaku, contact Jim Gremel. The same guy who makes the wire. He has them.
Thanks for the tip
 
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