Should i restart this chinese elm?

[sebfer55]

I keep on looking at this guy day after day wondering if i should just restart the branching.... Thoughts?

 

[Silentrunning]

What do you mean by restart the branching?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

This looks like a Seiju cultivar - or something closely related. You have to be careful with cork bark elms because they share a tendency to sprout multiple branches from one internode, and if you aren't careful, you get knots of inverse taper where multiple branches all leave the trunk at the same point. I can see this at several points on your tree, and before I would eliminate all the branching, I might just go back over the tree and in a very disciplined way make sure that there is only one branch at each junction. Once you clean it up you may find that there is a much cleaner line and a design comes through - where before it looked a little wild and unfocused.

 

[sebfer55]

What do you mean by restart the branching?

Prune back all main branches next spring

This looks like a Seiju cultivar - or something closely related. You have to be careful with cork bark elms because they share a tendency to sprout multiple branches from one internode, and if you aren't careful, you get knots of inverse taper where multiple branches all leave the trunk at the same point. I can see this at several points on your tree, and before I would eliminate all the branching, I might just go back over the tree and in a very disciplined way make sure that there is only one branch at each junction. Once you clean it up you may find that there is a much cleaner line and a design comes through - where before it looked a little wild and unfocused.
View attachment 626770

I fully agree on your take. Lower part looks like a hard prune to restart right?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I fully agree on your take. Lower part looks like a hard prune to restart right?

I'm not so sure that I would do it because I would lose many years waiting for such a large pruning scar to heal. I would be far more tempted to see if I could make something happen as a formal upright. For example look at this tree:



The beauty of elm trees is that you can shorten branches and defoliate the tree and get back-budding pretty much everywhere. Then a little wiring and you can make a big difference in only a couple of years. You just have to clean up your branching and eliminate bar branches and too many branches all leaving the trunk at the same spot. Also make sure your lowest branches weep down, your middle branches are horizontal, and only your top branches project upwards. It gives your tree the feeling of age and gravitas.

 

[Shibui]

I'm also with @Bonsai Nut Hard chop at this stage would be a last resort so see if there's any mid way that would give good results before reaching for the saw.
The photos you've offered don't give really great overall views of the tree so it's hard for us to see the nuances of direction in all the different branches so please take my offering as possibility only. Please check carefully that the material actually fits this plan before following blindly.

The lower red circle includes 3 main branches. As indicated it would be better with only 2 at any point. Rather than removing one of the smaller, side branches I'd consider taking out the thicker, main part of the trunk at that point.
Benefits: reduces height and therefore makes the trunk more prominent, new trunk line along the more upright of the remaining branches gives change of direction, saves a lot of thought and work sorting out that tall trunk.
As mentioned, check to make sure the new line fits in with lower branches, lower trunk and nebari before committing to the chop. If lower branches not conducive to that new trunk line you do have another upright branch a little higher up the main trunk that might be better placed. In that case I'd probably remove the lower upright mentioned above.

Lower branches appear to have been developed quick. Common enough from both hobby growers and professionals who all want a quick result. The problem is, long branches with no taper and few side branches that don't look like real branches. Hard cut back can be used in such cases. Chop all branches (and apex trunk line) to where you'd like to have side branches begin - say 1-2 trunk thickness out from main trunk? Then use grow and chop to develop the length of the branches and encourage side branching for ramification.

When redesigning this tree please try to remember it's an elm so best not to style with downswept branches IMHO.

 

[sebfer55]

I'm also with @Bonsai Nut Hard chop at this stage would be a last resort so see if there's any mid way that would give good results before reaching for the saw.
The photos you've offered don't give really great overall views of the tree so it's hard for us to see the nuances of direction in all the different branches so please take my offering as possibility only. Please check carefully that the material actually fits this plan before following blindly.

The lower red circle includes 3 main branches. As indicated it would be better with only 2 at any point. Rather than removing one of the smaller, side branches I'd consider taking out the thicker, main part of the trunk at that point.
Benefits: reduces height and therefore makes the trunk more prominent, new trunk line along the more upright of the remaining branches gives change of direction, saves a lot of thought and work sorting out that tall trunk.
As mentioned, check to make sure the new line fits in with lower branches, lower trunk and nebari before committing to the chop. If lower branches not conducive to that new trunk line you do have another upright branch a little higher up the main trunk that might be better placed. In that case I'd probably remove the lower upright mentioned above.

Lower branches appear to have been developed quick. Common enough from both hobby growers and professionals who all want a quick result. The problem is, long branches with no taper and few side branches that don't look like real branches. Hard cut back can be used in such cases. Chop all branches (and apex trunk line) to where you'd like to have side branches begin - say 1-2 trunk thickness out from main trunk? Then use grow and chop to develop the length of the branches and encourage side branching for ramification.

When redesigning this tree please try to remember it's an elm so best not to style with downswept branches IMHO.

Thanks for the detailed input. I think this is going to be the plan, when spring comes and paired with a due repot.

You touch an interesting subject. Lower branches should face upward like a young tree or downward like @Bonsai Nut suggested... Im not sure

Ill try to draw and upload a visual plan later

 

[Shibui]

Lower branches should face upward like a young tree or downward like @Bonsai Nut suggested... Im not sure

You are free to style your trees in whatever shape pleases you.

At first glance I thought the tree @Bonsai Nut posted was trident maple as it is styled in the shape of natural maple or pine growth - upright main trunk with lower branches below horizontal. It is a very nice bonsai. Someone has put a lot of great work into developing and maintaining it in that shape but, IMHO does not speak of elm to me.
Elms generally don't develop that shape unless we manipulate them that way.
Lower branches upward like a young tree is, perhaps overgeneralisation. There are quite a few families of tree that do not follow this pattern, elm is one of them where, even older branches don't grow downward from the trunk.
Spend some time checking images of old elms - both bonsai and natural trees to try to get a feel for how they grow. When I think of old elms I see ascending main branches, often broom style, rounded canopy maybe with really old lower branches arching up, out and then down.

Try to make your bonsai look like trees rather than making trees look like stereotype 'bonsai'

 

[zita]

given only the results matters without timeshedule, i d go back a step and refocus on trunkline.

For example end June chopping trunk back at lower red circle, turn the tree and tilt it backwards some.
The tree looks ready and aiming to get rid of its upper part

 

[Bonsai Nut]

At first glance I thought the tree @Bonsai Nut posted was trident maple as it is styled in the shape of natural maple or pine growth

Yes I agree. I think it is a nice tree but it is definitely a case of "styling a tree to look like a bonsai" instead of "styling an elm tree to look like an old elm tree in nature". They tend to have a very specific vase shaped growth habit. Not all of them - but many of them. Many of my elm bonsai have the same issue... I styled them as bonsai trees. I am going back to some and rethinking their design.

 

[minkes]

Just another solution to consider. What about removing the two lowest branches and airlayering the tree? Here is my virtual.

 

[sebfer55]

Just another solution to consider. What about removing the two lowest branches and airlayering the tree? Here is my virtual.

View attachment 626865

I kinda like the position of the lower branches. That and I always think airlayering as the last resort sice it's a big risk to take... Right?

Yes I agree. I think it is a nice tree but it is definitely a case of "styling a tree to look like a bonsai" instead of "styling an elm tree to look like an old elm tree in nature". They tend to have a very specific vase shaped growth habit. Not all of them - but many of them. Many of my elm bonsai have the same issue... I styled them as bonsai trees. I am going back to some and rethinking their design.

View attachment 626822

I'm aiming for smth similar to attached file... What would you suggest?

 

[sebfer55]

What do you guys think of a structure like this? I think it's achievable with my actual tree structure

 

[Shibui]

What do you guys think of a structure like this? I think it's achievable with my actual tree structure

That is about what I thought too. If the trunk, roots and branches are in positions to work with that I think it is probably worth pursuing.
The previous photo you posted was very different though. It appears to be a young tree but has several strong, upright branches. Much more broom style than the informal upright of the last virt. You might be able to change your tree into that style by removing the thick part but then wire the lower branches to be more upright. Broom style usually have upright trunk so you'd also need to repot with the trunk vertical to follow the broom style idea.

I always think airlayering as the last resort sice it's a big risk to take... Right?

Layering is quite achievable and very little risk. It should also give you 2 trees from 1 as Chinese elm sprouts so well from older wood and cambium layer the base of the trunk is likely to give a short, fat tree after the top part has roots and is removed.

 

[zita]

What do you guys think of a structure like this? I think it's achievable with my actual tree structure

yes, that new leader would be my choice as well.

my strategy:
-remove upper part end june
-dont touch the lower branches !!! and do not think about style or direction of them. They will recive the energy from the part that was chopped. Then let grow thouse lower branches for at least 3 seasons. They are your best helpers for grow and fattening the trunk.
-you dont chop roots, rather you will increase the pot size slightly every year.

Then your trunk gets fat and your leader grows fast.
Then after 3 years you will see whether and where to airlayer.
THEN you chop all thouse lower branches off completely at once, mid summer again.
Or in case of airlayering, just after removeing the layer from the tree.

then you can create new lower branches. Probably not needed.

Ah, you are from Argentinia.
So it is middle of summer and i would chop the top right now. Today

 

[sebfer55]

That is about what I thought too. If the trunk, roots and branches are in positions to work with that I think it is probably worth pursuing.
The previous photo you posted was very different though. It appears to be a young tree but has several strong, upright branches. Much more broom style than the informal upright of the last virt. You might be able to change your tree into that style by removing the thick part but then wire the lower branches to be more upright. Broom style usually have upright trunk so you'd also need to repot with the trunk vertical to follow the broom style idea.


Layering is quite achievable and very little risk. It should also give you 2 trees from 1 as Chinese elm sprouts so well from older wood and cambium layer the base of the trunk is likely to give a short, fat tree after the top part has roots and is removed.

Drawing the virt i decided that informal upright fits better! think im following the virt plan

yes, that new leader would be my choice as well.

my strategy:
-remove upper part end june
-dont touch the lower branches !!! and do not think about style or direction of them. They will recive the energy from the part that was chopped. Then let grow thouse lower branches for at least 3 seasons. They are your best helpers for grow and fattening the trunk.
-you dont chop roots, rather you will increase the pot size slightly every year.

Then your trunk gets fat and your leader grows fast.
Then after 3 years you will see whether and where to airlayer.
THEN you chop all thouse lower branches off completely at once, mid summer again.
Or in case of airlayering, just after removeing the layer from the tree.

then you can create new lower branches. Probably not needed.

Ah, you are from Argentinia.
So it is middle of summer and i would chop the top right now. Today

True, its mid summer here... good time to chop elms? im not sold on the idea of layering, but can consider it later on the design

 

[sebfer55]

Chop plan

 

[zita]

YUP !!!

do it now before anybody will make you unsure
(my grandfather used to have a nursery already and i do this now for 5 decades)

 

[Gabler]

Also make sure your lowest branches weep down, your middle branches are horizontal, and only your top branches project upwards. It gives your tree the feeling of age and gravitas.

A counterexample:

Post in thread 'Stewartia Monadelpha'
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/stewartia-monadelpha.42025/post-1220066