Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
But then you start with a telephone pole. Too late for me.
Thickening trunk indoors
- Thread starter Newbonsai13
- Start date
Deano
Shohin
Very interesting info on the deep pot vs shallow pot for trunk growth, I'd like to know more about this too.
I was in the same situation as the OP a couple years back after being out of bonsai for a dozen years, except living in an apartment I only had a windowsill with no outdoor area to put plants out for the summer. So I made a little grow area with a couple 4ft T5 grow lights and plastic storage bins, bought some so called “indoor” sticks to try out to see which would deal with living indoors before getting anything more costly.
Anyway on topic, got this twig BRT ($6) Sept. 2017, slip potted it into a 6” plastic pot and let it do it's thing, just trimming back new growth when it got to 6”-8” (because of space), defoliated once a year and some selective pruning. Now I know it would probably be twice the size by now if put outdoors for the summer, but you deal with what you have. I don't really like plastic pots so slip potted again into a clay pot this past spring, no root pruning, and a couple months ago it got it's first bark flake.
I want to keep it shohin sized and it will get some real work done this spring.
I was in the same situation as the OP a couple years back after being out of bonsai for a dozen years, except living in an apartment I only had a windowsill with no outdoor area to put plants out for the summer. So I made a little grow area with a couple 4ft T5 grow lights and plastic storage bins, bought some so called “indoor” sticks to try out to see which would deal with living indoors before getting anything more costly.
Anyway on topic, got this twig BRT ($6) Sept. 2017, slip potted it into a 6” plastic pot and let it do it's thing, just trimming back new growth when it got to 6”-8” (because of space), defoliated once a year and some selective pruning. Now I know it would probably be twice the size by now if put outdoors for the summer, but you deal with what you have. I don't really like plastic pots so slip potted again into a clay pot this past spring, no root pruning, and a couple months ago it got it's first bark flake.
I want to keep it shohin sized and it will get some real work done this spring.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Pretty credible trees, nicely porportioned! Being limited to small trees doesn't have to be as dissatifying as some would have us believe.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Grow an experiment/s -
[1] 3 foot lomg top branch
[2] 3 foot long side branch/es
Check soil mix, soil depth and see what gives the fattest trunk.
Good Day
Anthony
[1] 3 foot lomg top branch
[2] 3 foot long side branch/es
Check soil mix, soil depth and see what gives the fattest trunk.
Good Day
Anthony
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Pretty inscrutable...
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Nice to see you back again Anthony. Have you been in jail? Have you stopped beating your wife?
Last edited:
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Good points made, especially @LanceMac10 . I won't quote your entire post but certainly, there is a balancing act between letting growth run wild to build trunk size, and controlling/maintaining proportion in branching. You can easily wind up with a situation where the branches become too thick and need to be removed/regrown. I haven't worked with BRT long enough to know how well they respond, i.e. if you grow out the trunk to the desired size and then remove all branches, will they bud back well from a bare trunk? I would guess so, given their vigorous nature but haven't tried it. Ideally perhaps, one would identify a front and then work to develop sacrifice branching on the back side that can be allowed to grow vigorously, while other "keeper" branches are maintained at a smaller size. The other thing to keep in mind is that even with "regular" (or restrained) growth, trunks do thicken each year. It's just a slow process and might take decades to produce a decent trunk size. Look at Bill V's books to see how some of his trees have developed, spending decades in bonsai containers. The trunks do thicken significantly but it takes a long time.
Certainly a good idea to deal with roots early on. I've noticed that a lot of the tropicals I see for sale, already in bonsai pots, generally have poor roots. This is undoubtedly due to their being grown initially for the standard nursery trade, where the nebari doesn't matter. Then they get plopped into a larger nursery pot or a bonsai container and the roots just worsen with time. I hadn't seen the tree the OP is talking about until you posted it, it certainly looks to need root work before anything else is done. Any experience layering these? Many tropicals root easily so maybe this is something that can be fixed pretty easily.
One final thought about shallow or deep pots - one can get the "best of both worlds" by planting the tree on a hard surface (board, plate) and attaching the roots, then planting that in a larger container. This forces the roots out and helps flare the base, while the larger soil volume helps support a larger foliage mass. Ebihara type idea.
Certainly a good idea to deal with roots early on. I've noticed that a lot of the tropicals I see for sale, already in bonsai pots, generally have poor roots. This is undoubtedly due to their being grown initially for the standard nursery trade, where the nebari doesn't matter. Then they get plopped into a larger nursery pot or a bonsai container and the roots just worsen with time. I hadn't seen the tree the OP is talking about until you posted it, it certainly looks to need root work before anything else is done. Any experience layering these? Many tropicals root easily so maybe this is something that can be fixed pretty easily.
One final thought about shallow or deep pots - one can get the "best of both worlds" by planting the tree on a hard surface (board, plate) and attaching the roots, then planting that in a larger container. This forces the roots out and helps flare the base, while the larger soil volume helps support a larger foliage mass. Ebihara type idea.
canoeguide
Chumono
Adam Lavigne has several posts on BRT and has this to say:
"...if you want to increase your confidence, airlayer a BRT. You could probably do it with a nail file, a cottonball, some spit and a fig leaf"
The annual, mandatory, airlayer post
To fulfill my contractual blogging obligations with the National Blogging Counsel, here is this year’s airlayer post. For kicks, I’m combining two different time lines, just to see if I…
adamaskwhy.com
Newbonsai13
Seedling
thank you!!
Newbonsai13
Seedling
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
BRT grow like weeds. I have to keep mine pruned regularly or they get out of hand, even in winter.
However with all that growth, the trunk is relatively slow to thicken, particularly if you live in the northern latitudes where the outdoor growing season is short and the temperatures cooler compared to places like Florida.
If your starting out in a more conventional type pot (ie flower pot, fairly deep, narrow) thats fine, but at some point you are going to want to put it in a wide, shallower pot to encourage the roots to grow laterally instead of down. To thicken the trunk, you will need to let them grow some IMO. They will thicken if you keep them cut back but they will thicken slower. BRT are heavy feeders to support that growth so keeping them regularly fed with fertilizer will help too. If you are in a northern climate where you need to keep them inside in the winter, you absolutly must give them good supplimental light if you want them to grow well.
I have 4 brazilain rain trees, two are pretty much already with a decent sized trunk.
The best example I can show of growing a trunk on a tropical is my willow leaf ficus.
This picture was in 2016 before I started to select and prune for final branches, its even thicker now.
The tree was the size of a pencil when I got it.
I repotted it into bigger bonsai training pots as it grew and now its base is about 2.5 to 3 inches.
Sorry I dont have an updated picture at the moment. Thought I had taken one this year but I guess I forgot to.
However with all that growth, the trunk is relatively slow to thicken, particularly if you live in the northern latitudes where the outdoor growing season is short and the temperatures cooler compared to places like Florida.
If your starting out in a more conventional type pot (ie flower pot, fairly deep, narrow) thats fine, but at some point you are going to want to put it in a wide, shallower pot to encourage the roots to grow laterally instead of down. To thicken the trunk, you will need to let them grow some IMO. They will thicken if you keep them cut back but they will thicken slower. BRT are heavy feeders to support that growth so keeping them regularly fed with fertilizer will help too. If you are in a northern climate where you need to keep them inside in the winter, you absolutly must give them good supplimental light if you want them to grow well.
I have 4 brazilain rain trees, two are pretty much already with a decent sized trunk.
The best example I can show of growing a trunk on a tropical is my willow leaf ficus.
This picture was in 2016 before I started to select and prune for final branches, its even thicker now.
The tree was the size of a pencil when I got it.
I repotted it into bigger bonsai training pots as it grew and now its base is about 2.5 to 3 inches.
Sorry I dont have an updated picture at the moment. Thought I had taken one this year but I guess I forgot to.
Deano
Shohin
@Newbonsai13 if this is your first tree I would just concentrate on keeping it healthy over the winter, maybe get some extra lighting if that's an option. That way you can observe it's growth habits, read all you can about the species and soak it all in. There's a lot of good info being given to you here and it can be overwhelming. The main thing is to not try and do too much at first, water it (they like to be moist not wet or dry), fertilizer it (I use a diluted fertilizer each time I water) and trim it once in a while, most of all enjoy it. As you get more comfortable you can try some of the things suggested here, repot, pruning, styling or even air layer it. If it dies you've learned something, we all kill plants, it's part of the hobby. It's a long road but enjoying the journey is very satisfying in it self. Good luck and as you see there's plenty of help here on Bnut from the awesome people here.
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
I took a picture of my ficus tonight in its winter living spot.
You can see the amount of growth in 3 years.
I got the tree in 2014 and as I said, it was the size of a pencil.
Just shows what you can do under the right conditions.
You can see the amount of growth in 3 years.
I got the tree in 2014 and as I said, it was the size of a pencil.
Just shows what you can do under the right conditions.
Newbonsai13
Seedling
Thank you! How regularly would you recommend fertilizing? Do you always stay on the same schedule since this tree isn't deciduous?
Newbonsai13
Seedling
Thank you! If there is one thing that Bonsai has taught me, its patience. I have learned to enjoy the smaller things because of this hobby!!
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
At least once every 2 weeks. If it's a young tree that you want to put a lot if growth on, you could do once a week.
In the summer when my plants are outside. I use a fish emulsion seaweed mixture. But it's very stinky. So when the plants are inside, I use half stength miracle grow which is not stinky.
I keep them under one or two a 3 bulb shop lights with full spectrum flourescent bulbs that are on for 14 hours a day.
They grow for me all winter and I need to trim my large ones at least once a month to keep them in check. My little one, I let grow a bit to help thicken the trunk.
Bonds Guy
Mame
I’ve been letting this branch grow to use as a sacrifice branch, but it’s roughly 1.3inches from the soil line. Do you think it’s worth it?
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
At the risk of making a new enemy, it looks like you're cultivating inverse taper. (Successfully!)
canoeguide
Chumono
The problem with BRTs is that they seem to thicken the trunk in all the places that you don't want if not carefully managed. I'm still learning how to handle them, but it seems like it's thickening at the first (and second) branch, but not really below. I'll let someone more experienced with these give advice on what you might want to do.
Bonds Guy
Mame
I see it too. I let this tree grow unreglated in hopes that the trunk will thicken, but I see that’s not what’s happeningAt the risk of making a new enemy, it looks like you're cultivating inverse taper. (Successfully!)
