Too young to chop?

[Esolin]

Hi everyone,

I've been dabbling in bonsai for a couple years now, watching lots of videos on Youtube, and butchering $10 nanas for practice. Wanting to start getting feedback on some of my slightly better bargain finds, I joined the local bonsai club...right before Covid hit so I was able to attend a total of one meeting before they were canceled.

Anyway, with Spring looming, I'm eager to get some input on a few projects, so I'm happy to have found this community. I know it's harder to give styling advice from pictures, but it's better than nothing! Anyway, I thought I'd start off with an easier one.

I rescued this (95% sure it's an Aleppo) pine seedling from a roadside foot path about 16 months ago. It was 1.5" then. Now it's 12". It really went nuts after being planted in akadama/pumice and getting a mychoriza dose. In fact, it grew so fast that I missed wiring in some really tight bends when it was still super flexible.

It's still fairly pliable, and as you can see I've got wire on it now. I could probably crank it really hard without doing too much damage, but I'm wondering if I should cut it down instead and try to grow out a new leader to generate some taper. A new leader would give it a nice 90 degree kink, but wonder if the taper would ultimately be 'lost' or become indiscernible in such young material with only a year's growth in difference. If I want taper, should I wait another year until there's even more size difference? Should I thin the top to encourage the lower branches to stay healthy?

I know zilch about pines, so I'm looking for advice. Thanks!

 

[Shibui]

There are many rods that lead to bonsai so lots of different ways to develop your tree.
I suspect you could be correct about not achieving desired taper if you cut now. I would wait until the trunk is thicker and it will certainly grow more with a full head. The new shoot you have identified as a potential leader looks like it will just result in a straight trunk but that is possibly just a trick of the photo? Maybe one of the smaller ones will be better but no need to choose now as it will change a lot as it grows.
Leave the tree as is for now but definitely watch the lower branches. If they start to decline you will need to chop the top even if the objectives have not been met. Because pines are not good at buds from bare wood keeping healthy lower branches is prime importance.

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy.....wait.... you're from California!

Sorce

 

[HorseloverFat]

many rods

Tee-hee!

I, like OP, know next to nothing about pines.... but if it were mine, I’d start STYLING LOWER, letting that top grow as sacrifice until I was mostly satisfied with the trunk.

 

[misfit11]

There are many rods that lead to bonsai so lots of different ways to develop your tree.
I suspect you could be correct about not achieving desired taper if you cut now. I would wait until the trunk is thicker and it will certainly grow more with a full head. The new shoot you have identified as a potential leader looks like it will just result in a straight trunk but that is possibly just a trick of the photo? Maybe one of the smaller ones will be better but no need to choose now as it will change a lot as it grows.
Leave the tree as is for now but definitely watch the lower branches. If they start to decline you will need to chop the top even if the objectives have not been met. Because pines are not good at buds from bare wood keeping healthy lower branches is prime importance.

I agree with Shibui here. Chopping now would stunt the development of the trunk. That lower section is stalk straight so I'd eventually (when the trunk is you desired thickness) chop down to one of those lower two branches. Shibui's right, though. You'll need to keep an eye on the vigor of those lower branches as the tree grows. Pines tend to be very apically dominant and as you grow out the current leader, it will put less and less energy into those lower branches. It is a bit of a balancing act.

Cory

 

[Esolin]

Thanks all! It would seem that once again I'm being too impatient, lol.

New plan: Get some heavier wire and try to put a little more movement into the trunk. And thin some of the whorls at the top because yes, they are definitely the stronger branches right now (and I certainly don't need 20 branches clumped together no matter what style I later choose!)

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

You can vastly improve the appearance of movement in the lowest segment of the trunk by repotting the tree, putting the trunk at an angle to the plane of the soil surface. Go at least 15 degrees off vertical, up to maybe 30 degrees off vertical. Trunks at a perfect 90 degree to the soil surface start out looking static, and no amount of bending the trunk higher up will improve the feeling of movement. So no pruning. Just repot, putting the trunk at an angle to the soil. When you repot, make sure to arrange the roots in a radial fashion, you want a root system like the spokes of a bicycle wheel. Then bury the roots system by at least half an inch or more. DO NOT expose your nebari, your surface roots at this early phase of development. Exposing the nebari-the surface roots- is something only done AFTER the tree is otherwise ready for exhibition. Exposing the roots too soon will result in an "ugly volcano of roots", with the tree awkwardly perched on top, and no amount of dressing up will ever make the roots acceptable. So keep the nebari buried, but do look at it, and shape it every time you repot. THen bury the nebari again.

 

[River's Edge]

Thanks all! It would seem that once again I'm being too impatient, lol.

New plan: Get some heavier wire and try to put a little more movement into the trunk. And thin some of the whorls at the top because yes, they are definitely the stronger branches right now (and I certainly don't need 20 branches clumped together no matter what style I later choose!)

Consider this approach! I am only discussing generalities, not the specific steps each year. I typically reduce the main apical leader for the first time after the trunk reaches between 1 1/2 to 2 inches at the base. this usually finishes the trunk well beyond the three inch mark when the grow from successive apical leaders and sacrifice branches is complete.
Use the first four years to wire for movement and improve the nebari/root ball.
Once a year dig up and correct root structure, replant and allow to grow freely with lots of fertilizer and well watered. Use free draining soli mix when planted. At this stage it is easier in grow box or large pot. Young trees can handle this and a lot of progress can be made early on in development.
You can also watch for the next apical leader and wire into position, It helps to wire the main trunk away a bit to wire up the next apical leader for proper positioning and eventual taper. Change wire before it damages the bark too much.
I years four to eight consider initial chop , grow out of apical leader and selection of the next apical leader. Also during this time keep lower branches from being shaded out and keep the foliage in close to the trunk where possible lower down. Do this with successive cutback to promote back budding in the interior of the lower portion and branches you wish to retain.
Throughout the process only reduce or remove branches if they are creating a problem or need to be restrained for future use and keeping the foliage in close.
Thin needles to reduce shading in areas you wish to encourage better growth. Keep a structure that allows plenty of light and air movement for healthy growth and back budding.
Always allow the apical leader to grow freely reducing side branches and needles on the leader to focus the growth upwards. You are striving to create this type of image. Just for example here is a six year old and a ten year old.

 

[Esolin]

You can vastly improve the appearance of movement in the lowest segment of the trunk by repotting the tree, putting the trunk at an angle to the plane of the soil surface.

Very true! I realize now that I took that picture at the worst possible angle. I've attached some more to show the movement better (after I adjusted it this morning). The difficult bit is the bottom. The soil is so loose, and the pot so shallow, that I can't get sufficient torque to bend that first two inches of trunk much more with the current wire. Perhaps I should repot it now or in the Fall into something deeper that I can really anchor the wire into.

Good to know about the nebari. I'll keep an eye on that, and keep it buried.

Consider this approach! I am only discussing generalities, not the specific steps each year. I typically reduce the main apical leader for the first time after the trunk reaches between 1 1/2 to 2 inches at the base. this usually finishes the trunk well beyond the three inch mark when the grow from successive apical leaders and sacrifice branches is complete.
Use the first four years to wire for movement and improve the nebari/root ball.

Very good advice, thank you. I'll just give it lots of food and let it grow for now until it thickens some more, and just try to keep the energy balanced between the branches.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Nice, it does have some movement, but still, repot so the trunk is not so vertical.

 

[River's Edge]

deeper that I can really anchor the wire into.

When wiring young pines it can be helpful to bring the wire from the bottom, anchoring below through one of the drainage holes. If the wire approaches the trunk from an angle it will be easier to apply to the trunk and hold more effectively for lower bends. This can easily be accomplished when repotting. The best time to wire trunks is early on when the root ball is not so firmly established so this is a common problem when first encountered but simple to remedy.
Anchoring the heavier wire can be as simple as wrapping it around a short thicker wire flat with the bottom of the pot. Twist it three times around the middle of the short section and thread through a drainage hole, approach the trunk from an angle say approximately 45 degrees. Because the heavy wire is anchored to the pot it puts less stress on the roots when set in position. Be sure to hold the base when applying and bending the wire. It can also help to use two pliers to hold the wire for bending rather than grasping the trunk to bend. Remember to wrap the wire so it tightens when bent in the desired direction.

As a general rule I prefer to raise pines in containers that will hold at least 4 1/2 inches of soil with extra room to keep the roots covered as they develop and also have the soil level below the rim of the container at all times for effective watering! typically I construct grow boxes with a minimum depth of 5 inches.
Just one method, lots of others out there!

 

[Shibui]

In general taper is important for bonsai. Most taper in our bonsai comes from repeated grow and chops.
beginners tend to wire and bend a whole trunk thinking that what they have is what the will have in future. The reality is the trunk will probably be chopped several times so the upper parts of a young seedling are really just sacrifice. There is no real need to wire or reduce whorls of branches as that upper section will almost certainly be removed at some stage.
I concentrate on the lowest section of trunk in the initial phase of growing (how long that section is will depend on the final size of the bonsai so cannot be quantified in inches or cm). Each chop and grow sequence usually adds about 1/3 to the height of the tree but that will also vary between styles, species and individual designs so is even harder to quantify or generalize.

In the early years of bonsai I tried to predict the final style, size and shape of the trees I was growing. Soon learned just to grow them as best I could and work with the results.
It appears you are aiming at informal upright style so I agree with planting the trunk at an angle next repot and make initial root arrangement. Always overestimate the angle required. Trees have a habit of straightening up as they grow or we have a habit of underestimating angles??? Almost every tree I have planted has ended up far straighter than I anticipated.
Do not be concerned with the HBR (half bare root) fraternity for young pines. Young alleppo pines will cope well with a full bare root and 50% root reduction.

 

[Esolin]

Do not be concerned with the HBR (half bare root) fraternity for young pines. Young alleppo pines will cope well with a full bare root and 50% root reduction.

Thanks, I did wonder about this with the talk of adjusting nebari, since you'd kinda need to bare root to accomplish that. However it was practically bare rooted the last time I planted it and it did fine, so this makes sense. It's barely Feb, but it's practically Spring here, so perhaps this weekend I should upsize its pot, bend the trunk and check the nebari while I'm at it. Just get it done so it can have a strong growing season.

In the early years of bonsai I tried to predict the final style, size and shape of the trees I was growing. Soon learned just to grow them as best I could and work with the results.

Ha, yes I'm slowly learning this too with each unexpected development. It might eventually be an informal, it might be a literati. But I will keep my mind open and just focus on the trunk for a few years.

 

[Adair M]

The difficult bit is the bottom. The soil is so loose, and the pot so shallow, that I can't get sufficient torque to bend that first two inches of trunk much more with the current wire. Perhaps I should repot it now or in the Fall into something deeper that I can really anchor the wire into.

The real problem is that wire is inadequate. In general, aluminum wire is the WRONG choice for pines. It’s simply not strong enough. You can either, double or triple up that aluminum, or start over using copper. And your spirals need to be a little tighter.

And, for sure repot to start the tree coming out of the soil at an angle. If is starts out coming out straight up, it will be much much harder to develop a believable curve in the trunk.

Look carefully at the images RiversEdge posted. See how he keeps the bottom branches, but removes the little branches on the sacrifice portions near the top? That’s what you want to do. The portion of the sacrifice that thickens the trunk is the terminal leader. The side branches have little effect.

Look at this picture of how they grew JBP at Telperion:



They let them get 15 feet tall!!! But kept the lower branches.

You don’t have to go to THAT extreme, but it illustrates my point. See how there’s no side branches on the sacrifice leaders? That’s how it’s done.

 

[HorseloverFat]

The real problem is that wire is inadequate. In general, aluminum wire is the WRONG choice for pines. It’s simply not strong enough. You can either, double or triple up that aluminum, or start over using copper. And your spirals need to be a little tighter.

And, for sure repot to start the tree coming out of the soil at an angle. If is starts out coming out straight up, it will be much much harder to develop a believable curve in the trunk.

Look carefully at the images RiversEdge posted. See how he keeps the bottom branches, but removes the little branches on the sacrifice portions near the top? That’s what you want to do. The portion of the sacrifice that thickens the trunk is the terminal leader. The side branches have little effect.

Look at this picture of how they grew JBP at Telperion:

View attachment 352900

They let them get 15 feet tall!!! But kept the lower branches.

You don’t have to go to THAT extreme, but it illustrates my point. See how there’s no side branches on the sacrifice leaders? That’s how it’s done.

THOSE PICTURES! That S’whut’m talk’n’bauw!

 

[Esolin]

Look at this picture of how they grew JBP at Telperion:

Wow, those are some big sacrifice leaders!

I'm beginning to see why they say pines are not a beginner's game--there's certainly a lot to be mindful of. So after it recovers from a repot to adjust the trunk angle, I should remove the upper branches from the leader to keep the lowest ones strong?

 

[River's Edge]

Wow, those are some big sacrifice leaders!

I'm beginning to see why they say pines are not a beginner's game--there's certainly a lot to be mindful of. So after it recovers from a repot to adjust the trunk angle, I should remove the upper branches from the leader to keep the lowest ones strong?

Young tree, let it recover and grow out this year! everything is open to the sun, nothing being shaded out.
Add motion to the lower portion with stronger wire, repot for better angle and let it recover and grow!
Nothing else needed or beneficial at this point.

 

[Adair M]

Wow, those are some big sacrifice leaders!

I'm beginning to see why they say pines are not a beginner's game--there's certainly a lot to be mindful of. So after it recovers from a repot to adjust the trunk angle, I should remove the upper branches from the leader to keep the lowest ones strong?

Like River’s Edge said, you started with a very young tree. It takes a lot of growing to put on wood to make a trunk. Which also takes a fair amount of time.

Search for Eric Schaffer’s thread “A few pine seeds, six years later” to see what can be done in 6 years or so.

Just so you know, those trees I posted at Telperion were some of the best raw material available in the US. Most growers don’t go to THAT extent to develop material. But, that’s how it’s done.

 

[Esolin]

Oh no, little tree, your parents have been MURDERED. Ruthlessly cut down and cast by the side of the road!! Look away . . . look away!



Sadly, it was inevitable. They were leaning over the road and were a serious safety risk. I was curious how old they were. I'm no dendrochronologist, but I'm guessing 40-50 yrs. Well, they shall live on my little tree, and it's baby brother.

 

[Esolin]

My little Franken-pine can't decide what kind of foliage to have, but it's growing well. I wired a little more movement into the lower trunk in early Summer, then cut it off when it started to scar. I'm using a guy wire to try and keep it from straightening out as it thickens.

My big question right now is, how many branches do I leave? The lower ones, obviously, but there's a cluster of four or five strong-growing branches higher up. Do I remove/reduce these to keep them from shading out the lower branches, or do I leave them to soak up a lot of the tree's energy to keep the lower branches smaller for longer? Not sure what I should do.