Treeblers verses 'Taters...

Are you are Treebler or a 'Tater

  • Treebler

    Votes: 16 69.6%
  • 'Tater

    Votes: 7 30.4%

  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .

Brian Van Fleet

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Let me put this into words that even you can understand: My dislike of 'Taters has nothing to do with whatever level I have attained. The old cliche, "There's no accounting for taste" is often used pejoratively, but is just a flat statement that means just what it says. Each individual comes to an affinity or dislike of something based upon their whole preceding life. We are all different. I come to bonsai as a serious gardener for 40 years. I had difficulty accepting trees with deadwood because in gardening visible deadwood is the mark of a lazy gardener. Now, I like some, but only if it is "beautiful", as I see and define "beautiful". What other people think is meaningless to me. The degree of difficulty in creating deadwood cuts no ice with me. I don't know why anyone would like 'Taters. Degree of difficulty, age, price tag, whatever, means nothing to me. I'm pretty sure there are forms of bonsai you don't like, those that are the product of clip & grow for sure. That doesn't offend me even though a large majority of my trees are just that. You are a product of your history. If part of that history is an anal retentive slavish adherence to the Japanese rules and definitions, that doesn't bother me either.
You've bought the party line, I haven't. Insinuating that if I were better educated I would like 'Taters is not going to influence me, or anybody like me. And, the people out there on the margin aren't going to be convinced either. It's a matter of personal taste, like colors. I like brown, someone else likes blue. Which color is prettier? Which color is superior?
Who is to say?
Got it, you’re self-taught by the best teacher you could find.

It’s incredulous how you trash the study of the classic art, while also claiming it doesn’t bother you. Seems like a smokescreen. You showed up here ready to assert your expertise but you’re out of your depth and 20 years behind.
 

Adair M

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On another thread, AlainK’s thread about showing trees at a park, Forsoothe talks about how he shows his bonsai at an Art Fair. And how everyone raves about his trees, and he even admits it swells his head.

Now, granted, everyone loves to be complemented. That’s human nature. What’s bugging Forsoothe is we, the active participants in BonsaiNut, actually have a clue! Forsoothe seems to forget that the general public doesn’t know what makes a good bonsai - any tree in a ceramic pot is so novel it looks amazing to them. That’s why they buy the mallsai, the trees sold out of a van on the side of the road, the ginsing ficus sold as “bonsai” at Walmart.

Forsoothe’s trees are leggy, overpotted, and formless, at least that’s what I see from the few pictures he’s posted. The information (mis-information) he’s posted is long outdated. He argues that he can do what he likes, and sure he can. Just don’t expect the rest of us to like it.
 

rockm

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On another thread, AlainK’s thread about showing trees at a park, Forsoothe talks about how he shows his bonsai at an Art Fair. And how everyone raves about his trees, and he even admits it swells his head.

Now, granted, everyone loves to be complemented. That’s human nature. What’s bugging Forsoothe is we, the active participants in BonsaiNut, actually have a clue! Forsoothe seems to forget that the general public doesn’t know what makes a good bonsai - any tree in a ceramic pot is so novel it looks amazing to them. That’s why they buy the mallsai, the trees sold out of a van on the side of the road, the ginsing ficus sold as “bonsai” at Walmart.

Forsoothe’s trees are leggy, overpotted, and formless, at least that’s what I see from the few pictures he’s posted. The information (mis-information) he’s posted is long outdated. He argues that he can do what he likes, and sure he can. Just don’t expect the rest of us to like it.

Huh, I've had alain on ignore for some time. Only person I've got on that list.

As for Forsoothe and the local art fair show, good for him. Hope he's better in person than he is online at being a bonsai ambassador.
 
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On another thread, AlainK’s thread about showing trees at a park, Forsoothe talks about how he shows his bonsai at an Art Fair. And how everyone raves about his trees, and he even admits it swells his head.

Now, granted, everyone loves to be complemented. That’s human nature. What’s bugging Forsoothe is we, the active participants in BonsaiNut, actually have a clue! Forsoothe seems to forget that the general public doesn’t know what makes a good bonsai - any tree in a ceramic pot is so novel it looks amazing to them. That’s why they buy the mallsai, the trees sold out of a van on the side of the road, the ginsing ficus sold as “bonsai” at Walmart.

Forsoothe’s trees are leggy, overpotted, and formless, at least that’s what I see from the few pictures he’s posted. The information (mis-information) he’s posted is long outdated. He argues that he can do what he likes, and sure he can. Just don’t expect the rest of us to like it.
Adair,
I think you can leave this gentleman alone now. Let this one be done...
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Huh, I've had alain on ignore for some time. Only person I've got on that list.

As for Forsoothe and the local art fair show, good for him. Hope he's better in person than he is online at being a bonsai ambassador.
Ha! I missed it too...don’t mind his Bonsai discussion, but his anti-America, pro-socialism BS pushed him to my ignore list.
 

Cajunrider

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Ah yes that was it! Hai I get caught a lot reading the post without seeing the name and it was giving me a headache Hai. Hai Nothing against the guy though Hai. Hai Just the headache inducing Hai
Bahahaha. Hai!
 

Adair M

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Actually that guy you're blowing smoke about was a good source of information about Satsuki. Maybe not everyones taste, but now that he got chased off, I miss the nuggets I would get from him.
Judy, contact Rick Garcia about Satsuki azalea.
 

Cajunrider

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Actually that guy you're blowing smoke about was a good source of information about Satsuki. Maybe not everyones taste, but now that he got chased off, I miss the nuggets I would get from him.
I've received earnest advice from him too. He is nice.
 

Mellow Mullet

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Actually that guy you're blowing smoke about was a good source of information about Satsuki. Maybe not everyones taste, but now that he got chased off, I miss the nuggets I would get from him.


Sorry, Judy, I probably did that. Kendo was his handle. He had some nuggets, but he did not like it when you disagreed with him. I may have poked a little too hard. He was smart, but his skin was a little too thin.

Hai!

John
 

_#1_

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Then why even start this thread to begin with?
To be fair to the OP, I thought the main point from reading post #1 has been "growing from scratch take as much time as chopping a large trunk to create the same image"; and you won't have a large butt hole scar to deal with. I could be wrong though.

But I do think about this sometimes...
 

Adair M

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To be fair to the OP, I thought the main point from reading post #1 has been "growing from scratch take as much time as chopping a large trunk to create the same image"; and you won't have a large butt hole scar to deal with. I could be wrong though.

But I do think about this sometimes...
No, he says he’s never actually seen a ‘Tater. Which means he’s never been to a decent show. Which means he really has no clue as to what he’s talking about!

In the bonsai world, the style Forsoothe calls “Tater” is referred to as “Sumo”. Big fat trunks with a fast taper.

As with any style, there are good examples, and poor examples. The poor examples will show big scars, better ones do not. As the tree is developing, some amount of scarring is inevitable. Over time the scarring becomes less evident, and may even disappear entirely. Any freshly chopped tree is going to show a dramatic change of caliper at the chop site for quite some time. For how long that persists depends partly on the species of tree, and a great deal upon the skills of the owner.

The approach Forsoothe appears to advocate is to just take a tree and start to ramify the existing branches. Prune away unnecessary branches coming off the trunk, shorten the remaining branches, and start pinching new growth to increase the number of small twigs. Build ramification. This approach can yield an attractive looking tree, especially deciduous tree, when viewed when in leaf.

However, the Winter image will show the inherent faults that had never been addressed. Most likely, there will be little to no taper in the trunk. Or the branches. Often, all the branches coming off the trunk will be the same caliper. Or even worse, the branches near the apex will be heavy, and the branches down low will be thin, if not downright weak because the dense upper canopy created by the dense ramification will block the sun from the lower branches.

When the tree is bare of leaves, the structure can be seen. Poor structure is readily apparent. That’s why the big shows in Japan are usually in the winter. That’s when you can really see what the deciduous trees are made of. Foliage can hide a lot of faults.

Here is an example of a Sumo trident under development:

D0642D7A-A141-40E2-90EF-12D838427E49.jpeg

The tree has a fast taper, obvious caliper transitions from chops. Thin branches. The process is to wire the branches to their future direction, then let it grow! No pinching! After it’s grown out, then cut back hard, and grow out again. And again. No ramification work until the primary branches, the secondary branches and tertiary branches are created with taper. This takes several years.

Here’s the image after several years of work:

CF0DC4C5-3446-48DE-8AB1-CDA72FB19C22.jpeg

It’s still not finished, but it’s on it’s way.
 

atlarsenal

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To be fair to the OP, I thought the main point from reading post #1 has been "growing from scratch take as much time as chopping a large trunk to create the same image"; and you won't have a large butt hole scar to deal with. I could be wrong though.

But I do think about this sometimes...
@Forsoothe! wrote: Perhaps, one of you 'Taters would enlighten us? We Treeblers want to know, "How do your minds work? And later went on to say “What other people think is meaningless to me.” Which tells me he just started the thread to stir up shit.

Personally I do not care for the sumo style. I call them “wood blobs” but I am not going to start a thread to insult the folks that do like them and have worked hard to create what they like.
 

Cajunrider

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@Forsoothe! wrote: Perhaps, one of you 'Taters would enlighten us? We Treeblers want to know, "How do your minds work? And later went on to say “What other people think is meaningless to me.” Which tells me he just started the thread to stir up shit.

Personally I do not care for the sumo style. I call them “wood blobs” but I am not going to start a thread to insult the folks that do like them and have worked hard to create what they like.
I don't even have one yet. I'm working on creating one. Then I'll decide whether I like them or not.
PS: Eventhough it doesn't exist yet. It has a name: Jabba the (Insert the species here)
 
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