ShimpakuBonsai
Chumono
Can you tell me more about this?
Where are you going to collect and with who?
What is too much to pay for a tree?
- Thread starter Attmos
- Start date
Where are you going to collect and with who?
BrightsideB
Omono
I am just finishing moving to a house during HOTlanta period. I feel pain… I mean the pain.
I rented a U-Haul’in a$$ trailer to move trees. Maybe a van would be good. My reasoning was easy to cart on and space for taller ones. But they don’t have shocks so care is needed while driving and situating. But it’s worth it!
I rented a U-Haul’in a$$ trailer to move trees. Maybe a van would be good. My reasoning was easy to cart on and space for taller ones. But they don’t have shocks so care is needed while driving and situating. But it’s worth it!
Wood
Chumono
It might be worth it to size up to the trailer with shocks. Last time I used a trailer, it didn't have shocks and a friend's tree that wasn't tied in well spontaneously repotted itself on the drive. I'd also recommend a layer of upholstery foam underneath any sensitive trees or super valuable pots
I could live in this tree!!!Most of them aren't as massive as they look. I swear I prefer smaller trees, occasionally big specimens just have their own gravity and they pull me in.
To stay on topic, and to back up your claims, here's one way to get large old material, for free, which is my favorite price. Unless you count how much work that extraction will be, and about a mile hike, mostly uphill carrying it will be extra fun. This is a very old dogwood (Cornus Florida) with a 12 inch base that I've been contemplating as a heavily carved and fully hollowed trunk, which hopefully it would reduce the weight significantly. It would be chopped back in the neighborhood of what you see in this photo. I have always loved how petite dogwoods are, but the way they branch and the leaf size, I feel would be better suited for a large tree, so petite is out the window. I have been looking for a dogwood with a base with character for a while, most Cornus Florida usually are just very plain, straight upright growing and lack character. Developing a thick trunk with taper would take forever on this species as well, they grow very slow, so I have a game plan, one that could easily be used on another species. This is just an example of what you can do with large material.
View attachment 611183
Interestingly, it only has 5 branches that reach out of the edge of the woods. Probably a 25ft tall tree or better (for now).
View attachment 611188
A tree of this size will require at least a couple years of work to be 100 percent sure that there will be feeder roots near the trunk though.
The 1st spring I will chop the trunk back to around 20 inches or so and seal the cut really well so that the tree can respond by growing new branches during the growing season. Then I will use my sawzall, about 1 to 2 ft from the base, and cut a half circle. I will most likely trench the cut side and dig under the root ball and attempt to cut any tap root and work on the large roots near the cut. Then I will loosen up the topsoil and mix in some Osmocote or another slow release fertilizer so that more oxygen can get into the forest soil. This should improve the soil on the cut side and encourage feeder roots to grow. Theoretically the roots on the other side of the tree will remain intact to keep the tree healthy while the cut roots respond by producing new feeder roots into the trench soil.
The second spring I will prune the new growth if need be, also checking to make sure the wound is still sealed well. Cut the half circle on the opposite side of the previous spring, trench, repeat.
The 3rd spring theoretically the tree will be safe for collection with about as minimal risk of losing the tree as possible
I will not be creating deadwood like the yamadori Yaupon Holly in the picture below has, I doubt dogwood deadwood would last long. What I do plan is to hollow it similarly to create taper, then let it roll over and into the hollow eventually. Years of natural decay on a tree in the wild like this yamadori has endured can be replicated through the use of pretty much a diagonal cut and some carving tools.
View attachment 611189
If you are willing to put forth the effort, you can create the appearance of age, and taper from even a mediocre stuml, for free. Look for one with a bit of root flare and a nice nebari. There are many ancient oaks in Europe that I like to study for inspiration sometimes, it goes to prove that even a thick trunk without taper can be used to create bonsai similar to many of the ancient hollow trees you'll find in nature.
Bonsai doesn't have to be expensive, not everyone can afford to buy highly refined trees. This is just one way, among the many many ways you can go about create a really interesting tree on a budget, and saving many years of trunk grow out. Thankfully Europe is full of ancient oaks. I look at old trees in nature, in photos, and contemplate ways to recreate what nature does best. With old, large material I feel like you have to visualize the tree within the tree, and remove material till you have a good foundation to build upon, similar to how I would cut an overgrown haircut down to something excellent.
Hope this inspires some folks, and maybe gets a few to think outside the box.
View attachment 611193
The Barber
Chumono
I bring at least 10 blades....I seem to always find the one rock in a 10 ft radius to attempt to cut through and convince myself it is a thick root. I have six 8ah batteries i bring along also, lot of added weight, but beats going back to the old hand tools.And invest in a cordless reciprocating saw and ten extra blades
I don't use collecting for the free, or reduced cost trees, I collect because I like native trees and material with age, plus I love being out in the woods away from everything, knowing I might potentially find an amazing tree that can be utilized. I also agree with you 110 percent that ethical collecting is first and foremost. The tree needs to be respected, and given the best possible chance for survival. This means knowing which trees are near to 100 percent chance of survival as possible before collection, and anything with any substantial risk of failure just needs left alone. That also means that if a person goes collecting, it is their responsibility to educate themselves about the proper way to collect, and what it takes to provide the correct aftercare. Personally, I had a 96 percent survival rate this year, 2 deaths out of 45 trees. This being said, conifers are not for beginners, and most, but not all species of deciduous trees are more forgiving and generally have a better survival rate for most.
The trees I collect are free, but there are always going to be costs associated with what happens after receiving any tree. The costs like containers, soil, water, and fertilizer are a given. Even a nursery tree usually comes in field soil and needs swapped over, a seedling will need up-potted, a developed tree will need repotted. This is an inevitable cost in the hobby. A tree collected by you in most cases will be cheaper than what it would cost to buy a collected tree. The time invested scouting and collecting isn't an issue unless you're doing it for a living, hobbies are a way to spend time doing what we love, and the hunt for a good tree . You are correct though, some people have to travel far, but I assumed most of us live in areas with at least patches of woods on private land that you can ask for permissions on. I'm also not saying yamadori hunting is for everyone, it is physically demanding, and has risks involved. Like the 11 times I got poison ivy within a year while collecting, the time I got bit by probably 300 larval ticks in one outing, and several venomous snakes I had to avoid.
I apologize though, I forget that many people have to travel far to areas with trees, let alone trees with owners that will give permission to dig. I also didn't reallize that California has gotten so nuts that you can't dig up a small tree on your own property, even if you planted it. That to me is insane.
I am blessed, spoiled even I guess. I live on 5 acres, but pretty much all of the land owners here are kind enough to let you go into their woods and dig (minus the ones growing weed that don't want you finding their patch). I live in a county with a population around 7300, and about 80 percent of our county is wooded. Ai says that is about an estimated 8,464 trees per person.
If anyone wants to plan a trip to Kentucky, I'll take you on a yamadori outing, for free, and you can probably dig several deciduous trees (elms, hornbeam, beech, etc), there are enough smaller 1-2 inch diameter american hornbeams where I collect that it would be easy to collect enough to put together a nice forest in a single outing. I'll even provide the training pots and pumice. I bring friends and club members with me pretty often, as well as a customer of mine at the barbershop that said he was interested in getting into bonsai.
Wulfskaar
Masterpiece
I think it's just my town. It's built into an ancient grove of coast live oaks with some valley oaks sprinkled in. I have a massive one and several other large ones. I'm all for protecting as many as possible. Where it goes too far, in my opinion, is when I can't cut relatively small (4-6" thick) branches that are leaning against my fence. You're only allowed to cut if it's in danger of damaged a living structure.
Last year, I had a big oak die in the back-back and had to remove it since it was leaning against a shared fence. Before removing it, I had to get permission from an arborist.
Back on track: The value of an oak yamadori around here should be increased due to legal difficulties and stock availability!
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Not much to tell really. A group of friends in Bavaria has a collection spot in the Alps, for which they know how to get permits. Someone in my club knows someone there and he can join with a few friends from here.
The group in Bavaria does this as a fairly closed affair and they wish to keep it small scale not to jeapordise their permissions. So this is not "open to participation", but rather "invitation only".
shinmai
Chumono
Going back upstream a bit, I think Leo and I are of like mind. I’ve only been involved with bonsai for about twelve years, but I’m now 71 years old. In fact, when I returned from my first novice class and my wife asked me what I’d learned, my reply was “I should have started this when I was twelve.” I don’t know how much time I have left, but I want to spend it working on the refinement of what are already pretty nice trees.
Broadly speaking, I think I spent my first five years learning the necessary horticulture and elements of design, and sorting out what kinds of trees were most enjoyable for me. The answer was trees that make flowers. Out of fifty trees in total, thirteen are varieties other than azaleas, such as sand cherry, chokecherry, lilac, magnolia, quince, apricot, almond, etc. They all began as nursery stock, and some will eventually make pretty little shohin-sized trees that are for my own enjoyment, not ever to be great bonsai. I’ve also been able to find a few domestic, landscape azaleas with nice bases and one inch trunks which becoming actually pretty nice shohin. The challenge there is nursery azaleas seldom have those characteristics, and it takes a lot of looking—like that old saying about you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a prince.
The rest are all satsuki’s imported from Japan, including three fairly large trees. Those three are fully developed, and moving into the refinement phase.
A couple of years ago I told my wife that I was all done with “projects”, and that from then on it was my intention to buy a good tree once or twice a year. In my situation, I would rather spend a thousand dollars on a tree that is 90% of the way there than buy more cheap trees that will never really amount to anything, and spend my time on that remaining ten percent.
The key thing here is “in my situation”. I am very fortunate, in that my kids are grown, my retirement is pretty well secured, and I have the discretionary resources to do what I described. In our local club, however, we have a significant percentage of younger people whose situations are vastly different. It’s important to recognize that between student loans, a first house, and a couple of kids, they don’t have the same choices available to them. A twenty dollar ficus in a cheap production pot may be as far as they can stretch, but why should that prevent them from learning and practicing “real” bonsai?
My point, I guess, is that there are places for trees all along that spectrum, from the cheap ficus to the five-figure collected ancient conifer. I believe that good, workable material can be found fairly inexpensively, if one is willing to do some searching. The trick there, I think, is knowing how to recognize the necessary characteristics and not just buy something off the discount pallet because it’s a tree and it’s cheap. Collecting trees is not my thing, mostly because I can’t wait the necessary time for the tree to recover and be ready to work on, but some of our members have collected trees that end up being pretty spectacular.
The original question was, how much is too much to pay for a tree? I think there is no one answer, but figuring out an appropriate price for a given tree depends on [a] the inherent quality of the tree considering its age and species, do you have the necessary years to bring out its potential, [c] why you want the tree, i.e., is it to learn on, or are you intending to make it into a classical bonsai, [d] the amount you can afford to spend, and [e] does it really make your tail wag?
As somebody once said, there is “need”, and then there’s “want”, and “want” is always more expensive.
Broadly speaking, I think I spent my first five years learning the necessary horticulture and elements of design, and sorting out what kinds of trees were most enjoyable for me. The answer was trees that make flowers. Out of fifty trees in total, thirteen are varieties other than azaleas, such as sand cherry, chokecherry, lilac, magnolia, quince, apricot, almond, etc. They all began as nursery stock, and some will eventually make pretty little shohin-sized trees that are for my own enjoyment, not ever to be great bonsai. I’ve also been able to find a few domestic, landscape azaleas with nice bases and one inch trunks which becoming actually pretty nice shohin. The challenge there is nursery azaleas seldom have those characteristics, and it takes a lot of looking—like that old saying about you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a prince.
The rest are all satsuki’s imported from Japan, including three fairly large trees. Those three are fully developed, and moving into the refinement phase.
A couple of years ago I told my wife that I was all done with “projects”, and that from then on it was my intention to buy a good tree once or twice a year. In my situation, I would rather spend a thousand dollars on a tree that is 90% of the way there than buy more cheap trees that will never really amount to anything, and spend my time on that remaining ten percent.
The key thing here is “in my situation”. I am very fortunate, in that my kids are grown, my retirement is pretty well secured, and I have the discretionary resources to do what I described. In our local club, however, we have a significant percentage of younger people whose situations are vastly different. It’s important to recognize that between student loans, a first house, and a couple of kids, they don’t have the same choices available to them. A twenty dollar ficus in a cheap production pot may be as far as they can stretch, but why should that prevent them from learning and practicing “real” bonsai?
My point, I guess, is that there are places for trees all along that spectrum, from the cheap ficus to the five-figure collected ancient conifer. I believe that good, workable material can be found fairly inexpensively, if one is willing to do some searching. The trick there, I think, is knowing how to recognize the necessary characteristics and not just buy something off the discount pallet because it’s a tree and it’s cheap. Collecting trees is not my thing, mostly because I can’t wait the necessary time for the tree to recover and be ready to work on, but some of our members have collected trees that end up being pretty spectacular.
The original question was, how much is too much to pay for a tree? I think there is no one answer, but figuring out an appropriate price for a given tree depends on [a] the inherent quality of the tree considering its age and species, do you have the necessary years to bring out its potential, [c] why you want the tree, i.e., is it to learn on, or are you intending to make it into a classical bonsai, [d] the amount you can afford to spend, and [e] does it really make your tail wag?
As somebody once said, there is “need”, and then there’s “want”, and “want” is always more expensive.
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shinmai
Chumono
No idea how that bold typeface happened.
BrightsideB
Omono
That is pretty cool to have those old trees around. I grew up in Whittier around old orange groves. Some people had trees that were from those days still in their yards.I think it's just my town. It's built into an ancient grove of coast live oaks with some valley oaks sprinkled in. I have a massive one and several other large ones. I'm all for protecting as many as possible. Where it goes too far, in my opinion, is when I can't cut relatively small (4-6" thick) branches that are leaning against my fence. You're only allowed to cut if it's in danger of damaged a living structure.
Last year, I had a big oak die in the back-back and had to remove it since it was leaning against a shared fence. Before removing it, I had to get permission from an arborist.
Back on track: The value of an oak yamadori around here should be increased due to legal difficulties and stock availability!
Wulfskaar
Masterpiece
That is pretty cool. I've heard stories from some older folks of the entire San Fernando Valley once being a giant orange plantation. Now it's an urban nightmare.
The main tree in my yard is estimated at 350-400 years old, meaning the Chumash may well have gathered it's acorns, as they lived here continuously for over 10k years. I thought mine might be a champion, but it's not. Here's a link to when I took measurements: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/champions.23390/post-1009697
