What's the protocol?

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

If you are putting a formal display together with tree, accent plant and scroll, is a scroll that has something man made depicted a no-no.

Say a mountain view with a bridge and someone crossing it? Or same with a hut or house shown? How about a tree with a bird on it or flying by it?

Are depictions of man, animal, man made object OK or not?

 

[jk_lewis]

Unless you are Japanese and are showing the tree in Japan to Japanese, in MY opinion it shouldn't matter.

However, purists might want to read though theis:

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t11629-scroll-use-rules

 

[Klytus]

But is it art?

My goodness look,a monster mollusc!

 

[Smoke]

Is it being judged by any standard?

If not who cares.

It's like showing your hot rod with chrome wheels, special header pipes and fender flares at the local hamburger drive in on Sat. night and entering it into a "Concours d' Elegance" where the emphasis is on state of the art "stock' and how perfect it is.

I am sure there will be plenty at the hamburger stand that will like your display with whatever scroll you decide to display.

 

[Paradox]

Now Im hungry and want a hamburger....

 

[JudyB]

Somebody get me a CHEEEESEEBURGER!!!

 

[kakejiku]

If you are putting a formal display together with tree, accent plant and scroll, is a scroll that has something man made depicted a no-no.

Say a mountain view with a bridge and someone crossing it? Or same with a hut or house shown? How about a tree with a bird on it or flying by it?

Are depictions of man, animal, man made object OK or not?

Not claiming to be an expert just observations and what I have read and seen...
People are depicted often, especially pilgrims/travellers. However, they are not large depictions. If you have a large Joufuku size paper (about 4.5 feet long x 13 inches wide) then person only takes up about 1/10th of the space. I have not viewed any displays with people crossing bridges or with man made structures.

Birds on branches are common. There was a previous post by Smoke here on Bnut with a Kingfisher on a branch. Painting and bird is a little larger...but still very beautiful. The bird helps to depict the season. The book I study from says 翡翠 ひすい Hisui or Kingfisher is an Early Summer or Summer season bird...Have not seen the birds paired with man made structures in the painting, but that does not mean they do not exist.

I saw a Shikishi Kake scroll with a lighthouse with moon beach scene and Poem about a woodpecker paired with a Suiseki in a Doban on a Mid-size stand and no accent. The shikishi was changed out to have only a moon and ocean scene. The point was not because there was a man made object, but because all those elements in the painting (narrowed?) the display. By making the painting less busy, the display widened up and nudged the viewer to see the stone first and not the Shikishi Kake Scroll's painting...

 

[dick benbow]

One of my favorite trees here in the northwest is shore pine, a member of the lodgepole family.
I have several in development. When it comes to having a shikishi board made I could see
a beach scene and lighthouse on a jutting point. I could also see an ocean scene with rocky islands and seagulls in the air. maybe a sea otter floating on it's back amid trails of kelp seaweed in the tidal currents. I think in all these scenes with man made or wildlife included
it would place the tree in it's rightful habitat when on display here in the Northwest (USA).

regarding your mountain scene with villiage, I don't think a high mountain white pine Bonsai would look appropriate because most villiages would not be so high up the mountain that living there would be a hardship on the people in winter. A nice Acer palmatum might make good sense with a mountain villiage.
having lived in japan several years in Wakkanai ( northern most tip of Hokkaido) 20 feet of snow accumulation was not unusual for most winters. It was a fishing villiage and memories of dryed fish on wooden racks protected from snow is a memory well ingrained. I say all this because I think with specific knowledge of a scene, there may be times that it would be appropriate. especially if the display was more private (alcove at home) where you had opportunity to discuss and explain it with your quests. When using a public forum with no contact, a display would probably work best using any accompanyment as simple as possible with no opportunities to raise doubts or cause questions. Maybe a mantra of "when in doubt leave it out" would be appropriate.

 

[rockm]

Nothing is really out of the question in a drawing, HOWEVER, a picture should leave more to the viewer's imagination than spelling things out for them explicitly. The more explicit, the less a viewer's imagination is engaged. And it is the viewer's imagination that you're after. You're not drawing them a map that forces them to a destination of your choice. They should arrive in the general vicinity of what you had in mind mostly on their own. You just provide some guideposts.

The SUGGESTION of something in many many cases can be better than the thing itself.

For instance, a bird can suggest sound -- a bird's song -- which is why there are many scrolls with birds--they double (or even triple) up on meaning. Different KINDS of birds can also suggest season and location without any other information. A goose and the moon suggest autumn. A swallow suggests summer...--even in the West.

Water can also suggest sound, as well as a certain kind of environment.

Insects also make noise, sometimes at specific times of the year. A cricket depicted in a drawing with the moon and grass suggests chirping and breezes on an autumn night (Even if you're not Japanese). A cicada suggest sound also and scroll drawings depicting the insect are meant to evoke its song on a summer day.

Restraint and more restraint is a key to good display. Like the negative spaces in a tree's design, its off-center placement in the pot, or the blank spaces in a scroll drawing, a good display allows the VIEWER to construct a mental image. The more stuff you overtly include limits that ability.

 

[GrimLore]

If you are putting a formal display together with tree, accent plant and scroll, is a scroll that has something man made depicted a no-no.

Say a mountain view with a bridge and someone crossing it? Or same with a hut or house shown? How about a tree with a bird on it or flying by it?

Are depictions of man, animal, man made object OK or not?

I am not much for following any exact protocol but this link has a real good primer explaining the "general rules" http://www.bonsaiprimer.com/display/display.html Myself "if" I ever used a scrool at all it would depict the season that the photo of the display was taken in, other then that I see no use for them in an Alcove display(just MY personal opinion)

 

[kakejiku]

Myself "if" I ever used a scrool at all it would depict the season that the photo of the display was taken in, other then that I see no use for them in an Alcove display(just MY personal opinion)

I was debating for months whether I should write this post or just let this lie, but felt maybe it is an opportunity to learn some history of the Alcove or Toko no Ma. Many of you here are passionate about bonsai, but if you "see no use for a scroll in an Alcove display", then you do not understand how the Toko no Ma evolved.

The primary purpose for a Toko no Ma is to display a Kakejiku or Kakemono. So even if you say to a lay Japanese person Toko no Ma, then they are going to think a place to hang a wallscroll, and not a place to display a bonsai...

If you did display a bonsai/sanyasou/ikebana/or other piece of artwork in a Toko no Ma without utilizing a scroll, I feel many Japanese would think the bonsai looked strange or incorrect and had no use being there...

Just food for thought.

 

[GrimLore]

I was debating for months whether I should write this post or just let this lie, but felt maybe it is an opportunity to learn some history of the Alcove or Toko no Ma. Many of you here are passionate about bonsai, but if you "see no use for a scroll in an Alcove display", then you do not understand how the Toko no Ma evolved.

The primary purpose for a Toko no Ma is to display a Kakejiku or Kakemono. So even if you say to a lay Japanese person Toko no Ma, then they are going to think a place to hang a wallscroll, and not a place to display a bonsai...

If you did display a bonsai/sanyasou/ikebana/or other piece of artwork in a Toko no Ma without utilizing a scroll, I feel many Japanese would think the bonsai looked strange or incorrect and had no use being there...

Just food for thought.

I fully respect your thoughts and desire to express your artistic views. Myself I feel I can show a good relation with a main piece, an accent, and perhaps a viewing stone - If I were to add yet another element I feel it would be to fussy. Now if I eliminate one item I could and would probably use a Simple scrool as not to distract from the display. I notice that in MANY shows scrools are not used and I suspect it is so the viewer is not distracted from the plant displayed. That is just my observation and not an expert opinion.
Another thing to consider is the Alcove display itself primarily it's location. In my location I can display indoors for perhaps 2 days when guests are here. The concept is beautiful and traditional as you say but really not practical for many here. My areas will be refined this Summer and I will post pictures as to better explain.
Also must admit I did not "notice" this thread was in direct reference to an Alcove - my bad...