what's wrong with small trees?

[Woodland Spirit]

So if I want a tiny little juniper, maybe 4 inches tall, why not?
If my pinion, when it reaches a form of maturity is about a foot long, is that a problem? Maybe I have a sapling that will one day grow to have a massive trunk and be a very large bonsai like so many tink I should have exclusively. Does it have to be full size now? Can't it take some time? Years?
I ask this because I am getting flack about the size of my YOUNG bonsai.
I really don't see anything wrong with a tiny tree and all trees start small. If it stays the size it is now or grows 5 feet tall, what of it?
It is frustrating beyond what you may realize for a beginner to be expected to have a fully grown 300 year old bonsai that he dug up from a hill last summer.

 

[Djtommy]

aint nothing wrong with tiny trees, there are some nice ones to see in this thread (not mine)
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/my-shohin-collection.20355/

 

[Woodland Spirit]

http://www.bonsaiempire.com/blog/top10-smallest-bonsai

Shito bonsai
Shohin bonsai
Mame bonsai
Komono bonsai
Katade-Mochi bonsai
Omono bonsai
Hachi-Uye bonsai
Imperial bonsai

 

[ColinFraser]

So if I want a tiny little juniper, maybe 4 inches tall, why not?
If my pinion, when it reaches a form of maturity is about a foot long, is that a problem? Maybe I have a sapling that will one day grow to have a massive trunk and be a very large bonsai like so many tink I should have exclusively. Does it have to be full size now? Can't it take some time? Years?
I ask this because I am getting flack about the size of my YOUNG bonsai.
I really don't see anything wrong with a tiny tree and all trees start small. If it stays the size it is now or grows 5 feet tall, what of it?
It is frustrating beyond what you may realize for a beginner to be expected to have a fully grown 300 year old bonsai that he dug up from a hill last summer.

Welcome. So much to unpack here! I'm no expert, but I have some observations that might be helpful.

First, there's nothing wrong with small, or even tiny, trees; however, there are good small trees and not so good small trees. There are also species well suited to tiny stature, and species not well suited, etc. Proportion is much more important than just size - height to width ratio, leaf size to tree size, and so on.
A criticism that a tree is "too small" is most likely to be aimed at trunk diameter, NOT height. Good bonsai give the impression of a tree with great age, regardless of actual age of the bonsai. One of the most important features in this regard is a tapering trunk - you would do well to google "bonsai proportions" and do a bit of reading in this area. Then look again, critically, at the trees you have posted and see if you can't identify the issues other members are picking up on.

Moving on, collected trunks are often at their "final" diameter when collected, and new thinner segments are grown above that widest part for taper. Collected seedlings and other small specimens typically need to be grown as "stock" for quite some time before they can begin their training as bonsai. Growing stock is a separate but related art to bonsai, and plenty of people are not good at both.

Trunks come first. No serious pinching, pruning, wiring, training, flute serenading, cutting, or nice small pots until the trunk is approximately the diameter envisioned for the "finished" bonsai. For many practical purposes, trunk thickening will stop when actual bonsai styling begins. If it's a "stick in a pot" now, it could easily still be that in a decade or two if it's not treated as stock and allowed to grow some.

Edit: PS - there are always exceptions (except when there aren't), but those are probably not relevant here when discussing the broad picture.

 

[Anthony]

Woodland,
simply put, a 4" collected tree, meant to be 4" tall [ almost finished as a bonsai ] is what the others are after.
You may have other ideas.

So what would be collected, would be a gnarled, about 1.5 to 2 inch trunked specimen with lots of age in appearance.
It would look very old.
You may have other ideas.

The idea is if you collect, collect great age or appearing to be of great age.
Collecting at that level, may take time in the looking.
You may have other ideas.

If you need a link to the ideas, look at the Art work dealing with Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, and the areas the
elves come from and pass through.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[YukiShiro]

LOL, what we've got here is a failure to communicate,

woodland dude, nobody gave your tree any flak...It was merely stated that the tree is still very young and should be viewed and treated as stock, meaning it should still grow out a lot to add some girth to the trunk. It's cute and I like that you've saved it from the dozer, but it's not a bonsai yet, it's a collected seedling that is just starting on it's bonsai journey. It was also stated that you need to keep your eyes open for a pinion that exhibits great age or the illusion thereof. The guys gave you some awesome advice on that thread, go re read it a few times and think of the information they gave you.

and I never got any hint of anyone being disrespectful

best regards
Herman

 

[GrimLore]

I ask this because I am getting flack about the size of my YOUNG bonsai.

The plants you reference in the thread are old plants - that is the difference. For a plant to look like an old tree it needs to be old. The only exception I have ever noticed is a far view of a nicely shaped young tree... Anything wrong? - No. What you need to understand is they are your plants, your goals. The only time strict rules apply is when you are going to a "big" show. For most healthy and nice is normal and seeing the great plants is inspiration to "up" our goals.

Grimmy

 

[rockm]

So if I want a tiny little juniper, maybe 4 inches tall, why not?
If my pinion, when it reaches a form of maturity is about a foot long, is that a problem? Maybe I have a sapling that will one day grow to have a massive trunk and be a very large bonsai like so many tink I should have exclusively. Does it have to be full size now? Can't it take some time? Years?
I ask this because I am getting flack about the size of my YOUNG bonsai.
I really don't see anything wrong with a tiny tree and all trees start small. If it stays the size it is now or grows 5 feet tall, what of it?
It is frustrating beyond what you may realize for a beginner to be expected to have a fully grown 300 year old bonsai that he dug up from a hill last summer.

You have made an assumption that most beginners do. The vast majority of mature bonsai you see in shows, etc. haven't been grown in a pot since they were seedlings. They are cut down from larger trees. Most small bonsai DO NOT BECOME BIGGER BONSAI. That is a function of bonsai techniques.

Most (and probably over 90 percent or so) of bonsai started their training being cut down from substantially larger trees that have been growing in the ground (or in purpose-built grow beds).

 

[Woodland Spirit]

OK now that it has explained I am no longer upset. I am a beginner after all.

My apologies for the misunderstanding.

I knew that the "future bonsai" were not as they should be. What I did not know was how to get it there. Now that it has been explained in a way that I can understand, it makes sense.

While it may be common, I do not agree that I must collect them at their final trunk diameter. Some bonsai start as seed. I do see that they should be treated quite different from the way I have done.
So both of my bonsai as I have called them are actually not to the stage where they should be called bonsai. Now I know.
They are stock. Thank you all, some more than others, for taking time to read my post and explaining the problems.

There is one question. The tree who's roots were entirely ripped off, should it be left in the pot for a year or two and then put in the ground to gain some trunk diameter or should it be put in the ground as soon as the planting season allows?

 

[sorce]

Woodland,

That realization is a tough one....so tough....you may not even be all the way through it!

But this kind of response is proof that you will leap and bound forward!

Cheers Bro!

Now...you...the spirit....must go to the woods! NOT bring the woods to you indoors!

Sorce

 

[Woodland Spirit]

Woodland,

That realization is a tough one....so tough....you may not even be all the way through it!

But this kind of response is proof that you will leap and bound forward!

Cheers Bro!

Now...you...the spirit....must go to the woods! NOT bring the woods to you indoors!

Sorce

I am far from done learning. Is anyone ever done learning?
I am at the stage where I begin to see my ignorance.

Indeed I must go to the woods.

 

[aml1014]

OK now that it has explained I am no longer upset. I am a beginner after all.

My apologies for the misunderstanding.

I knew that the "future bonsai" were not as they should be. What I did not know was how to get it there. Now that it has been explained in a way that I can understand, it makes sense.

While it may be common, I do not agree that I must collect them at their final trunk diameter. Some bonsai start as seed. I do see that they should be treated quite different from the way I have done.
So both of my bonsai as I have called them are actually not to the stage where they should be called bonsai. Now I know.
They are stock. Thank you all, some more than others, for taking time to read my post and explaining the problems.

There is one question. The tree who's roots were entirely ripped off, should it be left in the pot for a year or two and then put in the ground to gain some trunk diameter or should it be put in the ground as soon as the planting season allows?

I would very gently transplant come planting season, but do beware average growth is between 1 and 3 inches a year here where they are common, so extremely slow, that's why it's generally recommended to collect larger material because you won't have to spend 40 Yeats building the trunk on them. I still enjoy your pinion very much and don't ever be discouraged in this hobbie. When I started a little over 3 years ago I had "mallsai" from walmart, and now I have more trees then I care to take the time to count, I don't care how many I have exactly I just love them. Lol

Aaron

 

[rockm]

OK now that it has explained I am no longer upset. I am a beginner after all.

My apologies for the misunderstanding.

I knew that the "future bonsai" were not as they should be. What I did not know was how to get it there. Now that it has been explained in a way that I can understand, it makes sense.

While it may be common, I do not agree that I must collect them at their final trunk diameter. Some bonsai start as seed. I do see that they should be treated quite different from the way I have done.
So both of my bonsai as I have called them are actually not to the stage where they should be called bonsai. Now I know.
They are stock. Thank you all, some more than others, for taking time to read my post and explaining the problems.

There is one question. The tree who's roots were entirely ripped off, should it be left in the pot for a year or two and then put in the ground to gain some trunk diameter or should it be put in the ground as soon as the planting season allows?

If you use seed you won't be doing much actual bonsai work for well over a decade. You will be just gardening. Seeds aren't really for beginners anyway. They are used in Japan by advanced growers who can manage them well. The initial root spread and trunk character can be precisely controlled by growers who know what to look for and how to maximize it over time. Beginners don't have those skills.

Bonsai grown from seed are not the go-to source in Japan. Never have been. Collected trees, both from the wild and from in-ground grow beds are the primary sources of raw material. Seeds are used by expert growers who know how to manage them from the start to maximize nebari and the bottom third of the trunk.

Using an older trunk buys not only size, but TIME. That's mostly why bigger bonsai are more expensive. It's not really the size of an older trunk that matters -- a decent older, developed trunk may only be two inches in diameter. It is the character in it and the TIME devoted to it--more movement, better bark and root spread, etc. This work is the most important aspect of making a bonsai. The bottom third of the trunk and the surface roots are the foundation of a bonsai's design and cannot be changed (unlike upper branching) in a trees lifetime.

BTW, being placed in a pot is THE FINAL STAGE of bonsai development. Placing the tree in a container severely limits its ability to grow, which is one reason bonsai remain small. Root restriction restricts a tree's ability to thicken appreciably, which means placing a newly collected bonsai in a bonsai container (not a growing container, which tend to be a bit larger and not meat for display) "freezes" the trunk size to a certain extent.

 

[jkl2]

The tree who's roots were entirely ripped off,

WILL die.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

So if I want a tiny little juniper, maybe 4 inches tall, why not?

No reason why not. In fact, you are as likely to have a convincing small bonsai, as an unconvincing large one.

I think many times people get "flack" for having small bonsai because they really don't have small bonsai at all - just small/young plants in pots. This comment isn't directed at you, personally, but is rather a general statement. One needs to look no further than the difference between a young Japanese black pine... and a black pine shohin. The time and skill necessary to develop (and maintain) the latter is significant.

 

[jkl2]

2.5 inches:

 

[rockm]

No reason why not. In fact, you are as likely to have a convincing small bonsai, as an unconvincing large one.

I think many times people get "flack" for having small bonsai because they really don't have small bonsai at all - just small/young plants in pots. This comment isn't directed at you, personally, but is rather a general statement. One needs to look no farther than the difference between a young Japanese black pine... and a black pine shohin. The time and skill necessary to develop (and maintain) the latter is significant.

More often than not, smaller bonsai are more unconvincing than larger ones in the hands of a beginner. Small bonsai (shito, mame and shohin size) take more talent and understanding of bonsai than larger trees. They're also a lot less forgiving artistically and horticulturally than larger sizes

 

[PaulH]

While it may be common, I do not agree that I must collect them at their final trunk diameter. Some bonsai start as seed.

True. Some bonsai start as seed but they are not grown from seed in pots. Almost without exception seedlings are grown in the ground until they reach the desired trunk size. They are then started on their journey to become bonsai. Whether you agree or not, that is how it is done.

 

[GrimLore]

Some bonsai start as seed.

You will land up with a LOT of trees - do seeds, nursery stock, collected stock, and whatever you can get your hands on. Serious! You will learn if you take notes what works, does not, and have a great experience on the Journey! There is nothing wrong with it - most important - ENJOY it!

Grimmy

 

[Adair M]

There is a great thread in the Pines section by Eric Schreader called "a few pine seeds six years later".