Which Need to be Stratified?

[JoeR]

I am starting quite a few species from seed this spring including:
Japanese Black Pine
Japanese Red Pine
Virginia Pine
Chinese Elm
Mugo (theres a method to my madness here)
Trident Maple
Maybe Scotts


Of the above listed species, which ones must be stratified? I looked some of them up but the websites are often contradictory to each other. I know the black pine dont need stratified.

Also if there are any other species you think I should start from seed let me know.

 

[coppice]

I start all seeds by-with cold stratification. They all germinate better for it. For some (Japan maple being one) don't germinate at all with out it.

 

[Bunjeh]

All of them.

 

[qwade]

All of them.

He is correct!

 

[JoeR]

With the exception of the black pines. I uad a very high success rate without stratifying them.

 

[qwade]

With the exception of the black pines. I uad have had a very high success rate without stratifying them.

Interesting. So what was your success rate with Pinus Virginiana, without stratification? I am familiar with this species. I Must admit I never tried to grow without stratification. Where and when was the seed collected? What was the temps before and during germination? This defies normal horticultural standards which state P. Virginiana requires at least a 30 day period of sub 45* temps. The others listed state similar lengths of stratification. Please enlighten us. How many of each species have you grown from seed ? What was your success rate without stratification ? Did you treat the seed or its coating in any way ?

 

[JoeR]

Interesting. So what was your success rate with Pinus Virginiana, without stratification? I am familiar with this species. I Must admit I never tried to grow without stratification. Where and when was the seed collected? What was the temps before and during germination? This defies normal horticultural standards which state P. Virginiana requires at least a 30 day period of sub 45* temps. The others listed state similar lengths of stratification. Please enlighten us. How many of each species have you grown from seed ? What was your success rate without stratification ? Did you treat the seed or its coating in any way ?

Im sorry, I should have been more clear.

They all need stratified *with the exception of jbp*. Jbp for sure do not need stratified however it does increase the germination rate supposedly.

You are familiar with virginia pine? Are they worth starting from seed? Any general care tips I need to know about?

 

[Stickroot]

Im sorry, I should have been more clear.

They all need stratified *with the exception of jbp*. Jbp for sure do not need stratified however it does increase the germination rate supposedly.

You are familiar with virginia pine? Are they worth starting from seed? Any general care tips I need to know about?

It doesn't hurt any seed to stratify.

 

[qwade]

Im sorry, I should have been more clear.

They all need stratified *with the exception of jbp*

Oh so now you are flip flopping, First you said none need stratification except JBP. Now your saying they all need stratification except JBP. Get your bulls#it straight before you post. My research shows JBP 'for sure' does need a period of stratification as do most pines. The seed embryos of many trees are either dormant or not mature when the seeds fall from the plant. These seeds need a stratification period before the embryo will begin to grow. As in JBP. Please provide your 'for sure' reference or experience as to JBP need no period of stratification. To answer your question on P. Virginiana. I would not start from seed as seedlings grow like weeds in my area.

 

[M. Frary]

Elm doesn't need stratification. Just shove them in some dirt.

For sure.

 

[JoeR]

Oh so now you are flip flopping, First you said none need stratification except JBP. Now your saying they all need stratification except JBP. Get your bulls#it straight before you post. My research shows JBP 'for sure' does need a period of stratification as do most pines. The seed embryos of many trees are either dormant or not mature when the seeds fall from the plant. These seeds need a stratification period before the embryo will begin to grow. As in JBP. Please provide your 'for sure' reference or experience as to JBP need no period of stratification. To answer your question on P. Virginiana. I would not start from seed as seedlings grow like weeds in my area.

I am not 'flip flopping'; you misread my first comment which I later clearified with my second comment.

I dont know what kind of 'research' you have done other than a quick google search (dont beleive everything you read on the internet) but if you had used the search engine on this site you would have found out they In fact do not need stratified. Look at Eric's thread here 'A few pine seeds, six years later'.

I have started 70 from seed and the majority sprouted (I dont remember the exact number). I had 30 seeds left over so I soaked them and planted them a few days ago.

And I guess that elm for sure dont need stratified.

 

[zachkent29]

Can I add one to your list? I'm trying some now with and without stratifying. Normally, I use cuttings but thought I'd try seeds for fun.

Crepe myrtle

 

[Random Usr]

To be specific .....

It doesn't hurt any seed to stratify.

 

[Txhorticulture]

Also if there are any other species you think I should start from seed let me know.

If I'm going to grow trees from seed, I look for 1) something I couldn't find seedlings for or 2) something that grows fast (nursery container stock usually has crummy roots but this even more true with very fast growing plants) or 3) species that cannot be found in cultivation or 4) seeds froM a choice plant (a cultivaTed maple, a dwarf conifer, a desirable population of plants.

I'd recommend dawn redwood it jumps out of the pot and nursery stock will be under potted crap. Same with montezuma cypress. (TaxodiuM mucronatum) both make great bonsai and you won't grow old watching them grow big enough.

I wouldn't bother with mugo, it's such a common nursery plant, why wait 12 years for that thing to get big when you can spend 30 bucks and get one at the hardware store.

 

[Txhorticulture]

Also even fast growing pines don't do much the first year, the cotyledons pop out some fluffy juvenile needs, takes a few years just to get going.

 

[JoeR]

If I'm going to grow trees from seed, I look for 1) something I couldn't find seedlings for or 2) something that grows fast (nursery container stock usually has crummy roots but this even more true with very fast growing plants) or 3) species that cannot be found in cultivation or 4) seeds froM a choice plant (a cultivaTed maple, a dwarf conifer, a desirable population of plants.

I'd recommend dawn redwood it jumps out of the pot and nursery stock will be under potted crap. Same with montezuma cypress. (TaxodiuM mucronatum) both make great bonsai and you won't grow old watching them grow big enough.

I wouldn't bother with mugo, it's such a common nursery plant, why wait 12 years for that thing to get big when you can spend 30 bucks and get one at the hardware store.

Speaking of dwarf conifers I was thinking about starting ezo spruce from seed but I cant find a seed source. The genus is also confusing but I think PiceaGhlenii is what I am looking for.

I will start some of them too. Anything else you can think of let me know, I want to start as many as possible.

With the mugo I was going to try the seedling cutting method and make a super shohin (mame) tree.

 

[Txhorticulture]

Most of the tree seeds Ive bought have been from schumacher treeshrubseed.Com

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Speaking of dwarf conifers I was thinking about starting ezo spruce from seed but I cant find a seed source. The genus is also confusing but I think PiceaGhlenii is what I am looking for.

P. glehnni or Sachalin Spruce is smaller, slower-growing, harder to find, and from colder climates (Hokkaido, northern Russia, Northern China). Has chocolate brown bark, and dark, short, soft, fragrant needles. Most of the spruces in Bonsai Today are glehnni. In have seen exactly one of these in person in my 21 years of bonsai.

P. jezoensis or Ezo Spruce is larger, faster-growing, slightly warmer climates, lighter bark and foliage. I sold mine to Sergio because it was starting to show stress in my hot, humid climate.

In Japan, the taxonomy isn't as closely regarded, so they're loosely/generically referred to as Ezo-matsu. If I can find a photo of each, I'll post them up. DJTommy's recent postings definitely look like glehnni to me.

 

[qwade]

I am not 'flip flopping'; you misread my first comment which I later clearified clarified with my second comment.

Ok , My bad, I guess, I get what you meant. However , I still maintain that most pines in temperate climates, including Pinus Thunbergiana, do need stratification. Most seeds from trees native to temperate zones possess survival mechanisms that require a cold period to germinate. This is a evolutionary phenomenon that guarantees survival of the species. Seeds that have no stratificant coating would fall to the ground, germinate, and the seedlings would succumb to the brutal forces of winter. Pine seeds including P. Thumbergiania have this remarkable' dormant time' so their seeds will be viable and maintain survival of the species. Now if you collected the seed in the fall, planted it, and it immediately germinated, without any period of time where the seed coating had no time to break down its natural genetically inborn desire to be dormant, well you have an anomaly. And since you had the majority of 70 seeds sprout without some sort of stratification, I find that amazing.

 

[qwade]

Speaking of dwarf conifers I was thinking about starting ezo spruce from seed but I cant find a seed source.

Picea sitchensis is a similar species and more readily available. Although I am not familiar with any dwarf cultivars of this species. Well actually i do recall a 'papoose'