Bonsai Fairy is Real !!!

[sorce]

Your statement would be true if one would live forever but as that is not the case you are making little sense.

if you do Bonsai long enough, time has no meaning and thus anything can become great, but for how long?

Don't want to ride you DJ. But forum reading is a communication form humans do not yet grasp as a whole.

This is for all!

That part, but for how long? Leaves the reader to make it true or false for them.

Sorce

 

[Djtommy]

Djtommy,

for us, a seed can be grown to show trunk sizes of 3 to 5 " in as little as 2 to 3 years. With 6 branch placements, and age / maturity characteristics coming in around 8 to 10 years of age.
A drawing controls the effort for the entire process, and an eraser allows for change.
So even if you just did 10 seeds a year, after 10 years you could be over saturated.

The mistake most folk make, is in not finding a source of information on how to thicken trunks, place branches and plan out a tree.

AND BE WILLING TO EXPERIMENT!!

After 20 years, well ................................................
Good Day
Anthony

Anthony,
Your statement of time has no meaning still doesnt make sense with this but anywayz...
Maybe its time you make some progession thread on those trees though.
I wouldnt mind seeing what you achieve with trees 15 years in training .
5 inch trunk in 2,3 years.. I would live to see those trees after 15 or more years in your hands.
(i understand you do bonsai for much longer as this so i guess you have many trees for aat least this long in training?)

Thanx

 

[Djtommy]

Don't want to ride you DJ. But forum reading is a communication form humans do not yet grasp as a whole.

This is for all!

That part, but for how long? Leaves the reader to make it true or false for them.

Sorce

Ok, thanx for the explenation. I guess i didnt understand that well then.

 

[sorce]

Ok, thanx for the explenation. I guess i didnt understand that well then.

It was hidden there in the end.

Are you a DJ?

Sorce

 

[Djtommy]

It was hidden there in the end.

Are you a DJ?

Sorce

Not really no, i uses to have vinyl recordplayers and made mixtapes but just for myself and some friends but DJ is just the abbreviation of my last name.

 

[Anthony]

Djtommy,

lots of trees [ native ] in training - which means deciphering how to.
Check the archives, done the progression bit already.
If not, more will follow just keep watching.

For someone in Japan, wouldn't you guys have figured out the seed/ cutting/ airlayer bit to maturity?
You wouldn't need my primitive input.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[augustine]

Nice converstaion guys. Everyone pays the price for bonsai. Us guys who start with inexpensive material pay with their time and hopefully their effort in trying to learn.

Now I see folks in my club that are inexperienced and buy expensive material. They don't have the ability to train/refine the trees and sometimes don't even know how to provide basic care. I cringe sometimes when I see them working on their trees and have seen quite a few die.

Our culture is into instant gratification, one does not get instant gratification from bonsai (unless you're buying a highly refined tree).

My budget is limited and I work with modest material. You may not see me win any contests BUT I enjoy bonsai as much as anyone. One has to be realistic and accept that there is a learning curve in any endeavor.

It's all good, let them spend their money and support the bonsai business community.

Best to all,

Augustine (happy in my bonsai garden!)

 

[A Random User]

Sawgrass, I appreciate the basic concept you're pushing here. Which is, I believe, "to learn bonsai, DO bonsai".

If I may add a few points... It's difficult to learn how to refine trees if you don't have access to highly refined trees. To learn from.

And another point: not every stick in a pot will make a great bonsai. At least in a somewhat reasonable amount of time.

But I agree with much of what you're saying. Referring back to the Artisans Cup, most of those trees would slowly decline and die if they lived in my garden. Not that I don't know how to care for them. My climate is not right for them.

As for comparing a centuries-old yamadori to a deciduous tree grown from a cutting 40 years ago...

How can you compare them? I suppose the only way to choose which is the "better" tree would be to not judge the trees between each other, but to judge each variety against a standard that outlines what a "perfect" specimen of that variety would be.

I think this is how the judges pick from all the "Best of Breeds" at the Westminstet Dog Show. Each breed has a "standard", and each of the top dogs is judged against its own standard. The one that most closely meets its own standard wins.

Now, something like that works because there ARE standards. We don't have them in bonsai. Well, we do, but they're not as strict.

And to anyone doing bonsai, I will always say to choose the best "raw material" available. It takes less time. If I may insert a stupid analogy: would you teach a right handed person to hold a tennis racket and play with their left hand? I suppose they could eventually learn to play well, but it would take far longer than if they started with their tight hand!

Thanks for the reply!

To clarify my position in the hopes to better understand where I am going with all if this let me first say that the problem I see is that as with any Art, there are different stages of learning for those wishing to be a practitioner of the Art.

Often, information from those further along is passed down to those starting off, which is good, but what I see happening is that the information that is certainly relevant to the more advanced student is not necessarily relevant to those starting off.

So, if we break our Art into 3 phases of learning, they might be the following...

1. The basics of Horticulture.
This is the phase we all start off at, here the student learns the basics of how to work with the medium of our Art, that being plants. They are a living entity, so one learns how to care for, what is required to keep our medium alive, what type of soil we use, why we use it, why we put it in pots, how to use basic tools to do basic pruning, etc. If one was studying to be a painter, they would learn about brushes, and the different types, what kind of stokes they do and what could be achieved by using varying brushes, they would learn about the different types of paint, and the different types of materials available to paint on.

2. The practice of creating a Bonsai. Here the student begins to create the Art. They learn how to take the living medium and shape it into a sculpture. They learn how to use tools more efficiently to create taper, to create ramification, to create jins, sharis, uros, etc. They also begin to learn how to wire for structure, how to do guy wires, wrap raffia, and most importantly how to do padding and begin to style what resembles an actual tree. As with a painter, at this phase the student has created the Art. They have done a Bonsai tree...

3. This phase I will call the Refinement stage as you have mentioned. This is usually the phase most students reach around the 10 year phase... the point where they decide to redesign everything they have worked on, or get rid of it in it's entirety. In this phase, the student begins to really question what it takes to make a good Bonsai. They have learned the previous phases and have made the Bonsai tree, but now seek to improve on what it takes to make this bonsai tree.

This is the phase where the student begins to search... they really begin to examine what others are doing, in comparison to what they are doing. Through the examination, they are perfecting their Art. They begin to really look more at the qualities of what it takes to make a good trunk, good nebari, branching, good placement of branching and structure, ramification, and placement of pads, etc.

The most important part about this phase is one really begins to examine and play with things regarding style. They begin to play with things like depth, weight, adding dimension, perspective, emotions and feeling, etc. Here is where one begins to examine who they are as Artist and what it is that they as Artist have to say... what is their message.

4. I will include this as a separate phase, even though it really should be considered perhaps part of the previous phase? Buy from my perspective I think it is another totally different entity in it's entirety and that is the showing or displaying of one's art.

Here the student of the Art has to learn a whole range of different things that in alot of ways has less to do with actually creating a bonsai... but instead how what you created is present for others to view. I will not dwell here to long other than to say, this phase has more to do with how your art interacts with it's environment of a display. From a student studying how to do Bonsai, one of the most important things here one learns is to take all what they have learned to this point and present a finished package for a moment in time. This phase is an art in itself and one really learns how to dot you I's and cross your T's... if not they will be pointed out to you.


Now, with all this said, of course there will be overlapping... often even a student very far along, might still be learning more about horticulture of their tree. A student studying the second phase of creating the art is already questioning some of the Refinement stage, etc.

My perspective with all this is that I am having to question what I see being constantly suggested... that being the concept of one going out and buying nice material to practitioners who might or might not be at a stage to be able to question what it is that makes a piece of material nice, other than it has a hefty price tag.

If I and everyone else here were totally honest with themselves... I would have to say that even though I am farther along in the process perhaps than some... I still find it hard to determine what is a good piece of material and I believe I always will.. I think this is the "Utopian" struggle within our Art... and no matter how long I may do Bonsai, I will never find a real answer for what it takes to find a good piece of material?

I mean I know what all the rules and books say... a piece of material with good nebari, nice movement in the trunk, good possibilities of structure, ramification, taper, etc. etc. etc... But, to be honest, some of the best material I have found often had none of this. Instead the material had "Meaning"... and I am creating the rest. What do this "Meaning" actually mean? It means, that I saw something in the material that I liked and felt it was worth spending time to develop. To be frank... the material had a story needing told, and I felt I could tell it.

Often for alot of practitioners, they want to recreate the Art they see others doing. Right? They see images of some one who is very skilled at the Art and the work they are doing, and they want to do that. So, for these practitioners, the definition of what makes a good piece of material is pretty certain... in fact it is defined by what the one who is skilled has done. So, if their tree has the certain type trunk, the nebari a certain way, and a particular type of branch structure, material they find with this is going to be good and often why alot of trees look the same.

However, as crappy as this may sound. .. for me this is not a qualification of good art. In fact, it is merely the copying of good art. The reason for me saying this is that if Art is a form of "Personal" expression. .. how then is one copying another's tree's and design, a personal expression? It's not... so then the Artist has to ask oneself are they really an Artist or are they a copying machine?

With this said, and going back to the subject at hand... my reasoning behind saying a practitioner should spend time working on crappy material day in and day out, is because I feel it is the best way one can actually come to terms with what is actually good material. .. I do believe that the interpretation of good material will depend mostly on the practitioner...
and their understanding of what their capabilities are.

If one only knows how to wire a few branches... then a piece of material that only needs a few branches wired would be good material... if one has spent years learning how to do anything under the sun to a piece of material, than this is obviously going to open up a whole range of options and understandings of what it is that makes a piece of material good and what can be done or not done and how long this will take.

So, my argument for the work on crappy trees is not to spend years making the crappy tree nice, although thus will happen along the way... my argument is instead, that through the work on the crappy material, one not only frees oneself of the worry factor of ruining a piece of good material, and is allowed to experiment and try new approaches that they would not try otherwise, thus learning new things... and opening up new horizons and opportunities of what can be done with material, thus expanding what would qualify as good material...

But, also, seeing that crappy material is cheap... it most importantly keeps folks doing! A basketball player does not show up at a game expecting to play if he has not practiced all week and most certainly no one allows him in the playoffs if he has just started. If one only spends money on nice material, and has no money left over, what do they do after they have wired the 5 branches on the nice material? If they go out and buy an piece of material with a hefty price tag cause they are told to do so, to Quite literally spend as much money as they can afford.... I read and hear it time and time again, what happens when they do and the same people who told them to, then tell them how to butcher the tree, again passing along more useless info, because they had heard this is what they were supposed to do by folks who had been doing the art for some time?

Those who have been doing the art sometimes know what they are doing... I say sometimes, because, well... See, I know how to build a whole tree off of just one branch... most starting off do not. What works for me, is not going to for one starting off... if the goal is to have a nice tree to show at the county fair, then cool... buy the nice material and bring it to a study group, workshop, etc. And have some one who knows what they are doing style it... if your goal is to be self sufficient , to not worry about having nice trees until you know how to actually do them, I would suggest buying the crap and constantly be doing and trying new things and learning. Unless one has money for classes or teachers, or far off lands... you will have to learn for yourself. Success or failure will be on you.

 

[Anthony]

How many Japanese masters study ART ?

Why do we accept their work as art , when you have trees world over ?

Do we think or just follow ?
Just curious.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Bonsai Nut]

It irritates me seeing how people could just want a finished tree and not actually work to get something to that point where as I buy cheap stuff and I've done research, experimented, and leaned how to care for these trees and improve them year by year and watch them get better.

Don't be irritated. Think of it as the difference between art appreciation and art practice.

I might be able to appreciate a beautiful oil painting, but I know I could never create one (or at least create one that would be worth appreciating ). Imagine if, in order to have nice oil paintings in your house, you had to (1) learn how to paint or (2) hire a professional artist to come in once a year and touch them up. Now I'll bet some of those professional oil painters would say "I just don't understand why more people don't learn how to paint, since the journey of becoming a masterful painter is so fulfilling". Meanwhile the people with the paintings in their house have a million reasons why they don't...

 

[aml1014]

Good point and I've never looked at it this way. I guess it more bothers me when people boast about things they didn't actually do

 

[wireme]

How many Japanese masters study ART ?

Why do we accept their work as art , when you have trees world over ?

Do we think or just follow ?
Just curious.
Good Day
Anthony

If we acknowledge bonsai as a valid art form then all of them no?

 

[Djtommy]

Anthony, i went through your posts and couldnt find many trees you posted so thats why i asked for,
I have seen many trees grown from seed here so i do know what is possible but it doesnt matter really where i live for you to post a tree no?
The one you posted is nice, if one grows with care for 40 years it is to be expected you can get some results.
You should post more trees, heck post them together with your phychological wisdom if you want.

As for psychological wisdom..if you consider bonsai art as it seems you do those japanese masters have been studyimg art for a very long time..

 

[A Random User]

This brings up a good point, I think everyone's views of Art and what Art is... is beyond question going to vary.

For, me... I personally am not going to grow something from a seed. With no insult intended I don't think that for me this is a productive use of my time. This would be like a painter making their own paints... some do obviously, but there is plenty of places to obtain paint already made, so I don't see the need.

I don't think one not growing a tree from seed is not really doing Bonsai. Just as I don't think one collecting a massive yamadori is not doing bonsai. I think they are...

I have had this discussion with Anthony before and he holds a passion and gets great pleasure out of the thought of having produced the tree from the beginning. I think this is awesome, I just don't hold the same views... unless one is doing this to really crank the trunk with curves, I see one being able to work with older further along material.

For me, I am not a horticulturalist, I work with plants to create art. I don't have a nursery and don't have the space to have a yard full of seedlings that in 20 years I can begin work on.

I think what has gotten lost here in my post is that even though I stated with the opening thread, that folks in places like Japan, China, etc. Have been working material for decades preparing then to be worked on, I am not saying to actually do this.

Quite the contrary, I am telling folks to work on crappy material today... not to sit for years... I am telling folks that not only can one learn new things on them, but also, as one improves one will find that in actuality one can take a piece of crappy material to a very nice tree in a relatively short time... it is possible, however it takes work learning how and some creative intuition... this is an Art let us not forget.

I have shown this with alot of the material I have posted up... now some might say they are not great trees. I understand and agree, but here is where I differ... they are exactly what they are a tree on it's way to becoming great. Are they going to need years of Refinement, yes! But, the good majority of the trees I see in shows are not of any greater quality really, and I just got the trees for pennies and did one style on them... what does this say about the trees being shown? That have had years already being worked on... and came with a hefty price tag?

 

[sorce]

If they go out and buy an piece of material with a hefty price tag cause they are told to do so, to Quite literally spend as much money as they can afford.... I read and hear it time and time again

And this advice always lacks, don't forget about, wire, tools, pots, insecticide, fertilizer, cinderblocks for your cold frame, etc. Etc. Etc. Not to mention 85 more trees!

guess it more bothers me when people boast about things they didn't actually do

I understand that feeling. But it truly just reads that way! Those folks show off their ownership. (Sure there's a couple fakers!)
But they don't boast about that any more than a dog show dog owner. They know they didn't invent the breed, just care very well for some of them!

@sawgrass also, I love your thoughts on learning stages, but there is that "prequel" one, where there is no mind of horticultural skill, no mind of the time, no mind of pot culture, no mind of really anything, we can call it the "karate kid stage"!

That's the one most folks come here in, and vets forget about it. Though we have been doing much better keeping sticks in pots alive! That will give them the confidence they need to get to stage 1.

And I am personally here to nurture that!

Good material. Good material.
Go to ANY shop, reputable or not, and you will see more ok material than good material. Or it would be on our benches!
Not in the shop making people think because it's not home depot it is good material. It is ok material, but you gotta address that crossing root, the crap proportions, the "easy to pot it like this" angle.

I here that quote again in my head!
Esther!

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Sawgrass,

It's interesting how you approach bonsai from the "Art" side. I myself approach bonsai from the "Technique" side. I don't consider myself as a very good artist. But I do feel that I am very accomplished in the "how to" make bonsai.

 

[KennedyMarx]

Sawgrass,

It's interesting how you approach bonsai from the "Art" side. I myself approach bonsai from the "Technique" side. I don't consider myself as a very good artist. But I do feel that I am very accomplished in the "how to" make bonsai.

You mean you consider yourself more of a craftsman than an artist?

 

[sorce]

I approach bonsai from the "neurotic" side, consider myself an artist, and consider myself a very poor horticulturalist.

I think this information should be on everyone's quote line.

It is good to understand.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

You mean you consider yourself more of a craftsman than an artist?

I would say so. Not that I wouldn't like to be more artistic.

I rarely comment on others styling. But I will comment on technique.

 

[Stickroot]

Adair,

if you do Bonsai long enough, time has no meaning and thus anything can become great, but for how long?
See you later Sifu.
Good Day
Anthony

Wow! As I was reading his post, I was imagining the character from Kung Fu Panda and then you said it. Sifu!
I love it !
@Adair M
You truly are.... Sifu