Deshojo Seedling Advice

[Squirrel7t7]

I planted this seed 3 years ago from another bonsai and it did nothing the first spring but sprouted the next year. For 2 years it has only developed 2 leaves and no other growth at all. Is this normal with seedlings? There are a small clump of buds at the node under the leaves but again there is no other growth this year.. I was expecting a little branching at least but it looks exactly like it did last year.

 

[0soyoung]

Likely growing roots instead. The pot looks to be very big for its size. Pot ought to be just a smidge larger than the root spread. Then you repot each year. Root prune to fit back into the same pot if yiu want to keep it small. Or, don't root prune and move it into a lot that is just a bit wider than the root spread to make it get big fast. Some commercial growers simply knock off the old pot, drop it into the next bigger size nursery pot and toss in some soil backfill (the only problem is that the roots aren't the best).

 

[leatherback]

I would have expected a lot of growth to be honest. My seedlings normally have 10-15 nodes by the end of year 1. Could be that this is just a weak one.

Note: If grown from seed, it is not a deshojo anymore, but "just" a japanese maple with red spring foliage

 

[ajm55555]

Note: If grown from seed, it is not a deshojo anymore, but "just" a japanese maple with red spring foliage

Additionally, as far as I know, Deshojo is sterile and does not produce seeds.

I think this plant's issue is with the soil. Probably not draining enough.

 

[Rivian]

Additionally, as far as I know, Deshojo is sterile and does not produce seeds.

Whered you hear that? I assumed Shin Deshojo was a seedling from Deshojo

 

[ajm55555]

Whered you hear that? I assumed Shin Deshojo was a seedling from Deshojo

Deshojo is a named variety of Japanese maple. You name a variety when it has interesting features that are worth preserving through asexual reproduction, i.e. not seed.
Asexual reproduction include: cutting, airlayer.
If you plant a seed from a named variety that produces seeds, you get another variety, which could be very similar to the parent but it's not the parent. The gene pool is different.
Shin-Deshojo is a Japanese maple variety similar to Deshojo, hence the similar name. Shin-Deshojo is supposed to be more resistant to diseases.
A seedling is a young plant grown from seed.
I've never seen a Deshojo with seeds and I've seen many plants in every stage of life.
When I find a reputable resource, I'll post it here.

 

[Rivian]

Deshojo is a named variety of Japanese maple. You name a variety when it has interesting features that are worth preserving through asexual reproduction, i.e. not seed.
Asexual reproduction include: cutting, airlayer.
If you plant a seed from a named variety that produces seeds, you get another variety, which could be very similar to the parent but it's not the parent. The gene pool is different.
Shin-Deshojo is a Japanese maple variety similar to Deshojo, hence the similar name. Shin-Deshojo is supposed to be more resistant to diseases.
A seedling is a young plant grown from seed.

Yes, I know thats how it usually is and how we want it to be, unfortunately DNA tests might disappoint you. Actually Shin Deshojo is one example where Ive heard iseli nursery is selling seedlings or a seedling from what might have been the original Shin deshojo clone AS Shin deshojo. Should not be done of course, but in that case Deshojo seedlings also seem possible
Aside from that, in my opinion its bad practice to pick a cultivar name that contains the name of a previous well known cultivar if its not directly related. Especially if your pitch is "its the old thing, but improved".
Hence my assumption

Looking up Shin Deshojo in the Vertrees/ Gregory book, the wording is "Shin means new, indicating that this cultivar is a later, improved selection of the well-known Deshojo."
Could be interpreted in 2 ways. Either Deshojo is understood as a clone and selection of Deshojo means seedling, or Deshojo is understood as a phenotype like Arakawa apparently often is in Japan, and Shin Deshojo just means great new specimen clone of its type (Deshojos, which would be used how we use Corallinums, perhaps a subgroup of that)

Have you seen a tree-sized Deshojo? Peter-chan has one, I dont remember if hes shown it with seeds.

P.S.: More from the book (deshojo entry): The shojo part of this cultivars name [...] can become confusing. 'Shojo' is an old standard form of the red palmatum. Deshojo as described here, is the base for other selected cultivars. Shin deshojo is a newer selection.
So that leads me to think its indeed a seedling from Deshojo, and Deshojo is fertile.

 

[ajm55555]

I don't understand what you mean here.

Actually Shin Deshojo is one example where Ive heard iseli nursery is selling seedlings or a seedling from what might have been the original Shin deshojo clone AS Shin deshojo. Should not be done of course, but in that case Deshojo seedlings also seem possible

Coming back to the question of whether Deshojo produces seeds. I've seen full grown Deshojo trees but never with seeds.
Sometimes nurseries will put photos of branches with seeds on a Deshojo description but if you look closely, the leaves are from a different variety.
Deshojo leaves are very distinct. If you have a picture of a branch with seeds that claims to be from a Deshojo, please post it.

 

[Rivian]

No, I dont. I trust Gregorys expertise though.

I meant iseli nursery is selling 'Shin Deshojo' which, if I understood "Amazing maples and crazy conifers" Youtube channel correctly, is really a seedling off Shin Deshojo, that they like better I guess.

 

[Shibui]

Back to the original question.
It is very unusual that any JM seedling does not grow for 2 years. I have never seen that in thousands of seedlings I've grown here but JM are very variable so its vaguely possible this one has a unique combination of genes which is missing whatever controls growth.
The clump of buds under the leaves is simply the result of extremely short internodes and exactly what I'd expect to see in a tree that does not elongate.

I assume you have been fertilising and watering to try to stimulate growth?
The only other possibility I considered has been mentioned - change of soil but can't think why that would cause such extreme lack of growth.
Failing that I'd go back to genetic cause which is extremely interesting but not much help if you want it to grow to develop structure.

 

[ajm55555]

a seedling off Shin Deshojo

My last comment: as said this sentence doesn't mean anything. A seedling from a named variety is not the same as the parent. In this case, it's just a Japanese maple, no other name.

 

[ajm55555]

I meant iseli nursery is selling 'Shin Deshojo' which, if I understood "Amazing maples and crazy conifers" Youtube channel correctly, is really a seedling off Shin Deshojo, that they like better I guess.

I don't know what you mean by "a seedling off" but I'll stop here ;-)

 

[Rivian]

Regarding the original question, maybe there is a connection between low growth rate and germinating late. Genetically low metabolism? Try other seeds

 

[BrightsideB]

Could have poor genetics. But I’ve seen this in seedlings I’ve grown experimenting with soil. The soil looks soggy. Try changing the soil but preserving the roots. I’ve done this and have seen it work.

A variety of a specie will produce seed and usually takes place in nature to become a variety of the specie. A cultivar has been propagated by humans otherwise it’s mutated genetics would not survive.

If a plant or tree is a variety it will have var. short for variety after it’s botanical name and then the name listed. Otherwise it’s a cultivar.

 

[dbonsaiw]

So weird that the seedling made it through winter.

I don't know this for a fact, but info on Shin Deshojo states "plant does not set seed, flowers are sterile, or plants will not come true from seed"

 

[Rivian]

or plants will not come true from seed

Sounds like a general warning for JM cultivars

 

[Squirrel7t7]

Likely growing roots instead. The pot looks to be very big for its size. Pot ought to be just a smidge larger than the root spread. Then you repot each year. Root prune to fit back into the same pot if yiu want to keep it small. Or, don't root prune and move it into a lot that is just a bit wider than the root spread to make it get big fast. Some commercial growers simply knock off the old pot, drop it into the next bigger size nursery pot and toss in some soil backfill (the only problem is that the roots aren't the best).

I don't think the pot is too big, it's only a 2"x 2"x 3" inch bonsai pot but I was wondering if the soil was too compact and it was struggling to root properly. I was surprised it was still alive after winter tbh. It nearly got plucked out with a few weeds and grass seeds that sprouted.. I think I'm going re pot it next spring in a more airy loose mix.

 

[Squirrel7t7]

Additionally, as far as I know, Deshojo is sterile and does not produce seeds.

I think this plant's issue is with the soil. Probably not draining enough.

I didn't know that.. I could be mistaken, it could have come from an Atropurpureum but with the vivid red colour I assumed it came from my Deshojo.

 

[Squirrel7t7]

Could have poor genetics. But I’ve seen this in seedlings I’ve grown experimenting with soil. The soil looks soggy. Try changing the soil but preserving the roots. I’ve done this and have seen it work.

A variety of a specie will produce seed and usually takes place in nature to become a variety of the specie. A cultivar has been propagated by humans otherwise it’s mutated genetics would not survive.

If a plant or tree is a variety it will have var. short for variety after it’s botanical name and then the name listed. Otherwise it’s a cultivar.

Its a well draining mix to be honest, I had just watered it before taking the pic and its only in a 2x2x3 inch bonsai pot. I have other small trees in the same mix (not from seed) that are growing just fine. Thanks for the info.. Yeah, i guess it all depends on where the pollen came from and from what species.. The seed was on the tree when I bought it.

 

[Squirrel7t7]

So weird that the seedling made it through winter.

I don't know this for a fact, but info on Shin Deshojo states "plant does not set seed, flowers are sterile, or plants will not come true from seed"

Yeah other people are saying Deshojo is sterile like a ring species (Ligers) so it probably came from an Atropurpureum.. I bought them both on the same day and the seed was definitely attached to one of them. It has the solid red stem all year which is more a trait of the Deshojo tbh..