About Princess Persimmon

[Goodbrake]

Longevity of Fruit
It is said that fruit without seed will wither and fall off the tree sooner. The question is what does 'soon' mean here? By mid-November all of the fruit on my trees seems to have gone through its full cycle of color changes, and I remove it in order to harvest seed for sale. In principle, the fruit should hang on and stay nice-looking all the way to Kokufu (February), but personally I have never allowed it to do so.

I'd love to know what factors affect fruit longevity. Do we any broad patterns that hold across diospyros e.g. do we know if nutrition, or temperature, etc effects fruit longevity?

 

[NaoTK]

Once a fruit ripens and the connection to the tree is dried/severed, the fruit will quickly degrade just like any fruit. The fruit has a waxy coating and can persist well into March (I still have fruits on trees) but the inside of the fruit is brown mush. Some cultivars ripen very late and don't ripen until January. Other cultivars put out a late round of flowers and have fruits that are green in January. In general, if you want to keep the fruit longer don't let them freeze.

 

[Goodbrake]

Do environmental factors influence how quickly the fruit ripens on the tree? I assume they do, but to what extent can we control them to time fruit display?

 

[NaoTK]

This has never been a problem because the fruit persists for so long and we don't show trees until the fall anyway. You can spray ethephon to speed up ripening. Perhaps you can keep a tree in the shade to slow down fruit development and ripening. But once the fruit undergoes abscission it is going to start breaking down and ripening. There are a bunch of exotic chemicals that interrupt the abscission process to delay fruit drop.

 

[Veebs]

This is a grow bed of Princess Persimmon ( Black variety). I obtained the seed in 2015 at Taiken Ten in Kyoto. The stems lignify very quickly so I wired shape in as they progressed to avoid straight sections and create interest. They are growing better now with lots of foliage. Planted them out a year ago in the spring and they overwintered quite nicely. Germinated in spring of 2016, so they are five years old. Still no flowers or fruit, have my fingers crossed for one or two females in the batch of seventeen. This variety is slower in growth habit I believe. Trunks have reached the whopping diameter of 1/2 inch on the largest ones and some closer to 1/4 inch still. Overall height if straight would be approximately two feet, but more contorted from wiring.View attachment 372181

Hi Frank, a couple quick questions: how did your ratio pan out?

Are princess persimmon capable of propagating variety traits through seed? I know that seed of a JM erases most of its special properties, but you have a variety you grew from seed of PP that retains the cultivar traits?

I have a lot of flowers going on in Oregon right now, so I reviewed the Japanese princess persimmon books I have. Here are some notes

Some varieties don't need pollination to bear fruit and they are common in cultivation by vegetative propagation. (May not have made it to America though)
Some varieties can be pollinated and make fruit without any seeds because of incompatibility.
View attachment 372305
Even without pollination, fruits will seem to develop as if pollinated until June when they will suddenly drop off.
Seeds germinate in a 6:4 male:female ratio
Flowers are only receptive for a couple days, so having many males is critical.
Flowers can be stored in the fridge for a week.
Insects are best, paint brush if not.

What are these books? I see they’re in Japanese but perhaps I can find them anyway.

 

[Veebs]

They vary considerably and in many ways (size, color, shape, etc.)

Here are a few of mine

View attachment 467554

Are any parent characteristics retained through seed propagation?

 

[Canada Bonsai]

Are any parent characteristics retained through seed propagation?

I propagate several hundred from seed every year. Some seed I produce myself, and some seed I source from Japan.

Whether your tracking characteristics of fruit, or foliage shape/size/color, or growth habit, in every case you would have to wait quite a few years.

At one point I thought about keeping track of which parent plant each seed came from, but I eventually decided to just toss all the seed in together and use it as rootstock. When taking-on a project like this, it's important to have clear objectives. In the case of Princess Persimmon, I already have over 40 cultivars HERE, which I would say represent the 'full spectrum' of possibilities in terms of size and shape of the fruit -- So what exactly was I trying to do? What was best case scenario? I could not reasonably expect a white or blue fruit shaped like star.

I know that seed of a JM erases most of its special properties

This is not necessarily the case. To pick one example among many, I've grown several hundred seeds collected from a Beni Chidori in Japan, and the majority of the seedlings had retained the characteristically pink spring foliage.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I know that seed of a JM erases most of its special properties

A lot of people have this opinion, but that is not how genetics works. Seed from a JM cultivar can be 99% true to the cultivar, or 1% true to the cultivar (as an example), or a 50/50 blend of the two parent trees. It may even have characteristics that aren't present in either parent tree - and be BETTER than either parent (depending on your definition of "better"). It is this genetic variability that makes working with JM so much fun - but also shows why you can't name seedlings after a cultivar parent. Cultivars are clones - plain and simple. They are all identical - because they are all the exact same genetic material - all from the same source plant.

FWIW, I didn't start propagating Princess Persimmon from seed until 2020. Of my five year old seedling (my oldest crop) 11% flowered this spring, and 1% bore fruit (confirmed female). They are all in 1 gallon pots.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

Cultivars are clones - plain and simple. They are all identical - because they are all the exact same genetic material - all from the same source plant

I would add that they are identical in essence, but not always in visual appearance.

Many factors alter the way genes are expressed, without altering the DNA itself.

Cultivars are just the best that we can do for now as far as 'exact replication' goes, but cultivars are not what most hobbyists imagine them to be

 

[River's Edge]

Hi Frank, a couple quick questions: how did your ratio pan out?

Are princess persimmon capable of propagating variety traits through seed? I know that seed of a JM erases most of its special properties, but you have a variety you grew from seed of PP that retains the cultivar traits?

What are these books? I see they’re in Japanese but perhaps I can find them anyway.

Lost the entire group of Princess Persimmon the year (2022) we moved from the acreage nursery to town. Our move date was the middle of December and we were hit with a decidedly colder than normal two week period during that time. The Princess persimmon were not protected in the greenhouse during that time of transition. Not one survived. They were seven years at that point and the ratio had not revealed itself.
As for retaining " cultivar traits" from seed that seems like a misinterpretation or expectation. The seeds I obtained were represented as " black variety" by the seller at " Taikan Ten" in 2015. They certainly exhibited the expected traits of black persimmon during the time I cultivated them. How much variation would have shown up over time is unknown.

As for the books, see post 195 in this thread. the information has been kindly posted.

 

[NaoTK]

One tip about growing persimmons from seed is to train the roots early and to refrain from using growing beds if possible. Get them into individual containers when you can. This is because they do not put up with root work well, so if you allowed the roots to extend long in a grow bed they will not transition well after major root work.

My work flow these days:
Year 1: Plant the seeds in a group Anderson flat. They germinate in July. Do nothing
Year 2: Do nothing all year. They will grow to like 6 inches tall and still very flexible. I suppose you could repot at this stage like year 3.
Year 3: Repot into individual containers+ wire+ root work. all at once. 99% will put up with major root work at this stage.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

@NaoTK have you tried taking cuttings at these early stages, either year 1 or year 2?

My success rates when taking cuttings from mature plants is hit or miss (not necessarily due to the cultivar), and the rates are nowhere near what I would like them to be for mass producing rootstock.

I just did this with Mei / Ume and the success rates were basically 100%. I have on my schedule to with princess persimmon next year, but can't find anybody who has tried

 

[NaoTK]

I don't bother with cuttings. You are probably better off making one big mother plant in a grow box with detachable sides and pull root cuttings off.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

You are probably better off making one big mother plant in a grow box with detachable sides and pull root cuttings off.

I like this idea, thank you! Probably higher success rate, and it shifts the workload out of peak propagation season too

 

[NaoTK]

Actually, try this:
This comes from my experience of growing Anderson flats on the ground. The roots go into the ground and when I peel off the flat, I get undesired weed plants shooting up all year!
You could periodically slice and peel off the bottom box once a year or something

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Actually, try this:
This comes from my experience of growing Anderson flats on the ground.

It is funny that you share this. In cases where I will have Anderson flats sitting in direct contact with the soil, I will sometimes stack them two deep - but the bottom flat will be empty. This prevents weeds from growing up or roots from growing down.

However it would be easy enough to fill the lower flat with soil and let the roots run into the lower flat, and at some point just run a saw blade between the two flats and voila! Root cuttings - already rooted!

 

[River's Edge]

Actually, try this:
This comes from my experience of growing Anderson flats on the ground. The roots go into the ground and when I peel off the flat, I get undesired weed plants shooting up all year!
You could periodically slice and peel off the bottom box once a year or something

View attachment 610288

From my experience using Anderson flats on the ground and bench I have learned to avoid the root extension and improve the drainage on smooth surfaces by doubling up the flat and drilling a few holes along the bottom vertical edge of the flat. This prevents roots extending into the ground and also improves drainage and gas exchange when the flat is placed on less porous surfaces. see below for example. Not persimmon but the principle applies. The additional holes I drilled are about three per side as noted with the red markings.

 

[NaoTK]

For commercial applications I would make a reusable thick plastic false bottom with a grid of evenly spaced holes. That way the root cuttings are already in a 2 inch grid instead of the gnarled tangle they will be without it.

 

[MrBonsai19]

Actually, try this:
This comes from my experience of growing Anderson flats on the ground. The roots go into the ground and when I peel off the flat, I get undesired weed plants shooting up all year!
You could periodically slice and peel off the bottom box once a year or something

View attachment 610288

Wow really cool suggestion!! I only have one PP but now I want to do this

 

[Veebs]

I’m kicking off my PP journey this winter. ~450 PP seeds just arrived.