ground growing

[MrMiagtree]

Hello, all! I've needed a hobby for awhile, and my love for plants plus my recent attempts to revive a gift "bonsai" azalea my wife received (sadly a failed attempt) drove me to give bonsai an honest try. I've researched for weeks now, and I selected black pine and shimpaku juniper for pre-bonsai stock. I've learned a fair bit about their care, but one thing I've not figured out is ground growing. Is this the ideal way to grow and train pre-bonsai? I'm assuming they still get wired and trimmed as you would in a pot, but how do you handle the roots? Do you dig them up and trim as you would with potted plants? And do you consider the added benefits worth the extra hassle? I'm in hardiness zone 6a, if that matters at all for this question.

 

[Mike Westervelt]

Welcome! both good choices for starter trees. Ground growing can be a good option if you want a big trunk quickly but with a few caveats, need to get the roots sorted before
placing in the ground and get some movement in the lower trunks as well. You do have to extract them every couple of years to keep the roots in check, and protect the lower growth by selective top pruning.
That being said it's also possible to develop trees completely in containers, it can be a bit slower but gives you much more control.

 

[Glaucus]

Growing trees for bonsai, styling raw material and design a bonsai, and taking a finished bonsai and maintain it, are all different things.

There are a whole bunch of things to field growing bonsai to become prebonsai. But generally, you'd want to use a grow bag. If you grow large pines and you need to dig them up, it is a ton of work.
A grow bag makes it much easier and also helps develop a better root system.
Some people that figured most of these things out where the guys of Telperion farms.

Thread 'Bonsai Mirai: Asymmetry podcast 10/26/2019 - Telperion Farms'

Jul 12, 2019

This episode of Ryan Neil’s podcast features Chris Kirk and Gary Woods of Telperion Farms talking about some of their methods of field growing, especially of Japanese Black Pines. This episode is full of good field growing knowledge, but they tend to be scattered around in their conversation and topics. Most of these topics are directly related to field growing Japanese Black Pine, though some methods will work with container grown JBP. The goal with these methods is to produce reliable back budding on their field grown trees. I wanted to take some of the key points of discussion in...

• cheap_walmart_art
• Replies: 13
• Forum: Books, magazines, and videos (incl video streams)

• 
• 

There's a whole bunch of details that one can debate over or vary, and things are species and climate dependent.

 

[Takahiro83]

I just put mine in the ground and forget about them. They seem to be doing good

 

[Shibui]

Black pines grow relatively quickly though nowhere near the rates of trident maple, prunus or crab apples. I allow 5 years for pines in the grow beds to develop 2" trunks.
Shimpaku junipers are much slower. They hardly grow at all for the first couple of years. I allow 6-10 years for junipers in the grow beds.
Most deciduous can be grown big and then chopped short and will develop new shoots from the trunk. Evergreen conifers are not so accommodating so we need to preserve some green growth closer to the base that can be used to develop your bonsai trunk and branches after the inevitable chop.

I've never bothered with root control bags. Both junipers and pines seem to transplant successfully by just digging, remove the field soil and cut longer roots back to fit into the new pots. Neither of these species seem to grow thick roots so they are quite easy to dig with a shovel, even after 5 years in the grow beds. Most trees can be dug every 2-4 years, root pruned and replanted but that does seem to stop the junipers from growing for another couple of years until the roots re-establish.

I tried wiring and shaping trees in the grow beds but encountered problems. They are growing so fast that wire tends to mark the trunks and branches in just a couple of months. Many of them ended up too badly scarred to use so I stopped wiring while they are in the ground.
Pruning for shape is possible but quite difficult to get a good look at the trees close to the ground. For a few years I pruned while lying on the ground next to the trees. I also found that the trees are developing so quickly that what seemed like a good plan one year was rendered obsolete by the next year's growth. Now just do essential coarse pruning while they are growing and then final shaping after the trees are potted.
In most cases, don't bother trying to develop branches while ground growing. Branches tend to grow too fast and end up too coarse and thick for good bonsai branching.

While ground growing does have a place in developing bonsai, it also has down sides as well. Just as thin trunks become thick trunks while growing in the ground, small problems also tend to become bigger problems after lots of growth. Without regular supervision, trunks can grow long and straight with little taper which is not great for bonsai. Definitely need to attend to roots before planting in the ground. Twisted, tangled or circling small roots quickly become fused together into a thick, ugly mass that's difficult to fix.
Don't be fooled into thinking the job is done after a few years in the ground. That usually just gives us a thick stump after the inevitable chop. It's then another 5-10 years of growth and development to get a trunk with good taper and bends and branches.

Ground growing will give thick trunks quickly but, often, of dubious quality. Growing in containers allows us much more control over which parts are developing and the chance to intervene if necessary. It may take a few more years but the quality of container grown trees is far better IMHO.
Take a look at the video posted in this thread. Particularly the black pines he is developing in pots.

 

[Glaucus]

There is always an issue between economics and quality. People that want to display in bonsai shows need the absolute best raw material. While the other side of the coin would be to produce trunks that do well commercially in terms of how quickly and cheaply they can be mass produced.
In Japan, there is a lot of mass production of bonsai. But it is sometimes said that very few of the trees from these operations end up in say the Kokufu. Not sure if that is true, but the trade-off is there.
And as Shibui says, trees grow fast in the ground and trees want to be trees. If you take a kokufu winning tree and plant it in the full ground and let it grow for 20 years without doing anything to it, it may start to look like a normal tree, with no hint it was ever a bonsai.

Same with sacrificial branches. They are great to get a nice tapered trunk. But it will cause a scar. The bigger the sacrificial branch, the faster the process, but the larger the scar.

 

[MrMiagtree]

Growing trees for bonsai, styling raw material and design a bonsai, and taking a finished bonsai and maintain it, are all different things.

There are a whole bunch of things to field growing bonsai to become prebonsai. But generally, you'd want to use a grow bag. If you grow large pines and you need to dig them up, it is a ton of work.
A grow bag makes it much easier and also helps develop a better root system.
Some people that figured most of these things out where the guys of Telperion farms.

Thread 'Bonsai Mirai: Asymmetry podcast 10/26/2019 - Telperion Farms'

Jul 12, 2019

This episode of Ryan Neil’s podcast features Chris Kirk and Gary Woods of Telperion Farms talking about some of their methods of field growing, especially of Japanese Black Pines. This episode is full of good field growing knowledge, but they tend to be scattered around in their conversation and topics. Most of these topics are directly related to field growing Japanese Black Pine, though some methods will work with container grown JBP. The goal with these methods is to produce reliable back budding on their field grown trees. I wanted to take some of the key points of discussion in...

• cheap_walmart_art
• Replies: 13
• Forum: Books, magazines, and videos (incl video streams)

• 
• 

There's a whole bunch of details that one can debate over or vary, and things are species and climate dependent.

I appreciate the insight and the videos. I'll definitely check those out today. That said, reading other comments, it seems ground growing may not he the best option. It gets quick growth, but it may not be the kind of growth you want in a bonsai.

 

[MrMiagtree]

Black pines grow relatively quickly though nowhere near the rates of trident maple, prunus or crab apples. I allow 5 years for pines in the grow beds to develop 2" trunks.
Shimpaku junipers are much slower. They hardly grow at all for the first couple of years. I allow 6-10 years for junipers in the grow beds.
Most deciduous can be grown big and then chopped short and will develop new shoots from the trunk. Evergreen conifers are not so accommodating so we need to preserve some green growth closer to the base that can be used to develop your bonsai trunk and branches after the inevitable chop.

I've never bothered with root control bags. Both junipers and pines seem to transplant successfully by just digging, remove the field soil and cut longer roots back to fit into the new pots. Neither of these species seem to grow thick roots so they are quite easy to dig with a shovel, even after 5 years in the grow beds. Most trees can be dug every 2-4 years, root pruned and replanted but that does seem to stop the junipers from growing for another couple of years until the roots re-establish.

I tried wiring and shaping trees in the grow beds but encountered problems. They are growing so fast that wire tends to mark the trunks and branches in just a couple of months. Many of them ended up too badly scarred to use so I stopped wiring while they are in the ground.
Pruning for shape is possible but quite difficult to get a good look at the trees close to the ground. For a few years I pruned while lying on the ground next to the trees. I also found that the trees are developing so quickly that what seemed like a good plan one year was rendered obsolete by the next year's growth. Now just do essential coarse pruning while they are growing and then final shaping after the trees are potted.
In most cases, don't bother trying to develop branches while ground growing. Branches tend to grow too fast and end up too coarse and thick for good bonsai branching.

While ground growing does have a place in developing bonsai, it also has down sides as well. Just as thin trunks become thick trunks while growing in the ground, small problems also tend to become bigger problems after lots of growth. Without regular supervision, trunks can grow long and straight with little taper which is not great for bonsai. Definitely need to attend to roots before planting in the ground. Twisted, tangled or circling small roots quickly become fused together into a thick, ugly mass that's difficult to fix.
Don't be fooled into thinking the job is done after a few years in the ground. That usually just gives us a thick stump after the inevitable chop. It's then another 5-10 years of growth and development to get a trunk with good taper and bends and branches.

Ground growing will give thick trunks quickly but, often, of dubious quality. Growing in containers allows us much more control over which parts are developing and the chance to intervene if necessary. It may take a few more years but the quality of container grown trees is far better IMHO.
Take a look at the video posted in this thread. Particularly the black pines he is developing in pots.

This is such a detailed post, thank you!

To summarize, ground growing can yield fast growth, but it's harder to control, and the way the trunk grows may not be what I'd be looking for in bonsai. Containers provide us control over HOW it develops, which is probably better than speed. Sound about right?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Welcome to the world of bonsai…. Or should I say the world of trade offs!

In bonsai each action has a certain result. but also a certain negative effect…. For example grow a tree in the ground
Positive effect - thicker trunk and foliage fast
Negative effect - longer internodes, fatter branches, possibly growing out of “realistic” bonsai scale

Sacrifice branches

Positive effect - thicken trunk faster
Negative effect - when removed will leave a scar that may take a few years to heal… or more if you slam the tree into a pot right away

Also sacrifice branches misplaced will not have as good an effect on thickening., can create bulges

So why are these techniques still used… and are effective? It’s because the grower understands the up and downsides, maximizes the up sides while understanding and minimizing the down sides.

To know and manage the trade offs is one of the main tenets all bonsai hobbyists must keep in mind when developing a tree.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[sdavis]

I just put mine in the ground and forget about them. They seem to be doing good

I agree. It works for both conifers and deciduous.

 

[jevanlewis]

The posters above have done a great job explaining the trade-offs. Although to date I have focused on container growing, I am planning to do some ground growing just because I have the space. So, if you have space and your time will allow it, even if you primarily do container growing, why not do some ground growing, too? Your contrainer-grown bonsai won't be offended

 

[Shibui]

To summarize, ground growing can yield fast growth, but it's harder to control, and the way the trunk grows may not be what I'd be looking for in bonsai. Containers provide us control over HOW it develops, which is probably better than speed. Sound about right?

That's certainly my experience. Ground growing can yield great trunks but you'll also get a few (lot?) that are not so great.

 

[Glaucus]

This is one more video that immediately starts off with discussing how growing trees in the ground is fastest, but can result in trees getting away from you easily.

And wiring is one of the big issues since it cuts in fast, and it is hard to apply and remove.

This must be especially true for species that are true trees, but less so for shrubs.

It also suggests going from the full ground, to container, back to full ground, then container again.
For true tree species, growing them in containers exclusively from the 1 year old seedling start seems a bit silly. Unless one wants a thin or small bonsai.

 

[MrMiagtree]

Based on what I'm seeing, I think it'll be best to stick with pots, especially with my lack of experience. I have a busy life, and with how quickly things can get out of hand with ground growing, that's not the best approach for me.

On a related note, both the juniper and JBP have roots growing out the bottom of the 4" nursery pots they were in. I also picked up a variegated jade to try for some indoor office fun (I know it'll he a challenge) which seems OK. I'm worried the first two are root bound with what all is coming out the bottom. Should I risk a full repot now to get things loosened up? The JBP in particular had about 3 inches of coiled, tangled roots coming out of the drain holes. The nursery owner said the JBP is about two years old, and the juniper is about 1 1/2. The jade is 2, but was a thick cut off of an older plant.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

This might be an inspirational read... the winner of our 6 year Japanese black pine from seed contest. He did some ground-growing to accelerate development.

Thread 'Ryceman3's 6yr JBP Contest Entry'

Jun 25, 2018

And so it begins ... well, for me anyway. Being from the Southern Hemisphere I am patiently waiting for July 1, and have spent the past month or more looking for JBP seeds to work with. They are not so plentiful in this part of the world, and our quarantine laws make importing seed from overseas a no-go zone, so it took a bit of extra effort but I have come up with some.

I managed to get a few from 3 sources.

A local eBay site had the cultivar JBP "Thunderhead", which I think may not be as good for shohin as the growth (from all reports) is a bit coarse - but since this was all I could...

• Ryceman3
• Replies: 175
• Forum: The 2018 Six Year Japanese Black Pine Contest

• 

 

[Shibui]

Should I risk a full repot now to get things loosened up? The JBP in particular had about 3 inches of coiled, tangled roots coming out of the drain holes.

Given that you don't have a location in your personal profile it's a bit hard to give seasonal advice. If you are in the Southern hemisphere repotting should be no problem. I know some growers repot in Autumn up north but I'm not sure whether that means full repot or light root trim. I still prefer to do full repotting of most species in Spring - just because I know that works.
If you are in the north then winter is coming up which means dormancy and limited or no growth until Spring so no real need to rush into a repot.
Some beginners think a plant is bot bound when the first roots appear at the drain holes but that's the first place roots appear because they grow out and down. Usually there's still plenty of space in the pot for more roots. I usually press down on the soil surface. If it gives a bit there's no problem. If the soil is rock hard that usually means time to repot soon.
3" of tangled roots could mean a lot of things. Photo would allow us to make a better judgement.

 

[MrMiagtree]

Given that you don't have a location in your personal profile it's a bit hard to give seasonal advice. If you are in the Southern hemisphere repotting should be no problem. I know some growers repot in Autumn up north but I'm not sure whether that means full repot or light root trim. I still prefer to do full repotting of most species in Spring - just because I know that works.
If you are in the north then winter is coming up which means dormancy and limited or no growth until Spring so no real need to rush into a repot.
Some beginners think a plant is bot bound when the first roots appear at the drain holes but that's the first place roots appear because they grow out and down. Usually there's still plenty of space in the pot for more roots. I usually press down on the soil surface. If it gives a bit there's no problem. If the soil is rock hard that usually means time to repot soon.
3" of tangled roots could mean a lot of things. Photo would allow us to make a better judgement.

I'll get that taken care of. I'm im North America, in zone 6a climate. 4 seasons (early fall right now), with hot, humid summers lacking in real rain fall, and cold windy winters. typical temps average low 90F in the summer, to lows in the 10F range in the winter. Heat waves can get us above 100F for a couple of days, while cold snaps can reach lows of -15F.

I'll get pictures attached shortly.

 

[MrMiagtree]

Given that you don't have a location in your personal profile it's a bit hard to give seasonal advice. If you are in the Southern hemisphere repotting should be no problem. I know some growers repot in Autumn up north but I'm not sure whether that means full repot or light root trim. I still prefer to do full repotting of most species in Spring - just because I know that works.
If you are in the north then winter is coming up which means dormancy and limited or no growth until Spring so no real need to rush into a repot.
Some beginners think a plant is bot bound when the first roots appear at the drain holes but that's the first place roots appear because they grow out and down. Usually there's still plenty of space in the pot for more roots. I usually press down on the soil surface. If it gives a bit there's no problem. If the soil is rock hard that usually means time to repot soon.
3" of tangled roots could mean a lot of things. Photo would allow us to make a better judgement.

 

[MrMiagtree]

The primary concern is the JBP. Aside from roots coming out the bottom (that's after the seller took another 4 inches off of them at time of purchase), it's incredibly top heavy and tips over at the slightest breeze.

The variegated dwarf jade would be more of an esthetics thing, since it's going to the office. It's not necessary, however.

 

[Shibui]

Jade can be repotted any time if it is kept warm after. Repotting with minimal root reduction can be done almost any time.
Junipers are much slower to grow and develop. Looks like that one is no problem until Spring.

Agree that the pine has outgrown it's current pot. Even if it is not actually pot bound it will grow better with a larger pot. There's a couple of options I can suggest for the pine:

• Sit the current pot inside a larger pot and fill around with fresh potting soil. That should make it stable until Spring when you can repot properly.
• Do a full repot now and hope it's early enough for the new roots to get going before dormancy in your area.
• Do a light repot now, into a more stable pot then follow up with a proper repot this Spring or the one after.
• Cut the trunk now to reduce instability and to push some back buds down low, then repot in Spring or the following Spring. Pruning may slow trunk thickening but no low branches will make it extremely difficult to design a tree. In a couple of years your pine trunk will be long and bare unless you can get some low branches going soon. Much better to end up with a trunk that has options and potential, even if it takes a year or 2 longer.

Just be aware that the longer you wait to do a proper repot, the thicker and more tangled the roots will be. Early intervention makes it easier to rearrange any roots that need moving and trees seem to recover from radical root reduction much better when they are younger.