Strainers:

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I didn't say "and whatever else," I said "strainers and pond baskets" and I think someone would have to work pretty hard to twist that into more than it was.

Yes, you said "strainers and pond baskets".

No one is debating what you said, only that what you implied while saying it was wrong.

Specifically, you said "... that strainers and pond baskets are great for smaller trees. For larger trees, grow boxes or growing in the ground will be much more effective."

This is not correct. Effectiveness is not loss at a certain size.

No twist here...it is what it is.



Will
 
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Don't "Yes dear" me....wait till you get home!!!

Now, don't make Daddy spank you! And you know what I mean!
Sounds like an unhealthy fascination with spanking men, if you ask me, which should be taken elsewhere. May I suggest www.ifantasizeaboutspankingmen.sic

Most fixations and obsessions usually turn sexual, I don't know if I should be flattered or alarmed that Chris's fixation toward me has turned sexual. :eek:

Since you can not admit you were wrong Chris, or even support your statement logically, can we at least stick to the topic, please? Attempting to change the topic or incite a fight, does not change the facts.




Will
 
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Vance Wood

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GOOD GRIEF EVERY BODY KNOCK IT OFF. Another decent thread turned to crap. This seems to happen every time a subject is posted that fosters some decent replies and discussion, someone comes along knowing more about how to push some-one's buttons than they do bonsai and it all starts. Don't you know that the only winning move is not to play? Think about it; nobody remembers who fired the first shot just the carnage that follows. Just remember that a Bully mentality needs response to justify itself, being ignored is the worse thing you can do to that mode of thinking.
 
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Rose Mary

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here here!

I am new to this site and have found some very good info here but it seems the threads always deteriorate to personal vendetta crap...too bad as it really spoils the intent of the forums and puts off the good exchange of info that could be shared.:confused:

there are obviously many talented folks on the site, is it possible to share the great ideas without all the personal pot shots?

just my opinion...who wants to wade through the crap to find the gems....

thank you to everyone who tries to be a help when we are looking for answers to questions about BONSAI

rose
 

Behr

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This too is off topic, but perhaps worth thinking about...I am reminded of a very old 'Asian culture' story which has been told in many forms, but has much the same meaning in all...Is it really worth it?...

An old monk and a young monk were traveling through a community just after a serious rain storm...Water and mud in the streets was nearly knee deep...As they passed by a lady of obvious prestige being carried in a sedan by two servants, along with many packages and boxes, they over heard her expressing her anger due to the servants not being able to maneuver the sedan to a position whereby she could dismount without soiling her fine silk clothing and fine shoes...The elder monk approached the sedan, and carried the lady upon his back to a suitable spot...After setting her down she stormed off without even as much as a 'thank you' to the monk...

The two monks continued their journey to the next town, and while preparing to rest for the night, the younger monk obviously upset about the events earlier in the day commented “she did not even have the courtesy to thank you for your effort”...The old monk replied...”I put her down hours ago, why are you still carrying her?...

Regards
Behr

:) :) :)
 
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I just made one small observation. I'm not sure what the fuss is all about.
 

Asus101

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The fuss is about your dodging the fact that your one small observation was wrong.

And of course, your usual lame attampts to incite.


Will


Will, you know Chris will keep going. If you are the "better person" why try have the last word? You complain constantly but still have to have the last word..... stop it and I'm sure chris will "go away".


Now I stumbled on something thread worthy while researching fast growth in black pines.

http://www.nebonsai.com/journal4.html said:
Basically he uses a method of growing in small colanders which then gets 'potted' into a larger colanders (so as not to slow down the growth with repotting)

what are the pros and cons of a strainer as a pot?

I would think more waterings would be needed in warmer climates.
 
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agraham

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Fox,

Strainers/colanders and pond baskets are good for developing a fine root system.If you grow big trees,the ones i have seen on the market are probably not big enough for developing the trunk.I use 14" square pond baskets and they work great for a tree up to about 24" tall.So,I would say that colanders and pond baskets are useful for developing smaller trees.For large bonsai....30"-40"..I would suggest developing them in the ground or in a large grow box or nursery container(20 to 45 gallon size is what I use)

Vance Wood has a patent on a screen sided box that I assume could be made as large as you want.But,the effect of the screen will be limited as it will be so far away from the nebari that the root branching induced by air pruning would probably not be that significant in developing a compact and flat root system.

pros......Good aeration..although probably not as big a difference as some think.
...........Air pruning of the roots..the more root tips,the more root hairs..the more root hairs the more water and nutrients absorbed...the more water and nutrients absorbed..the faster the growth...up to a point.

cons......generally more expensive than regular nursery pots or the ground
............the ones i have used(especially the larger ones)seem to be a bit flimsy for the weight of the soil.They also don't seem to be treated for uv light and become brittle.I would imagine that Vance's boxes are much more durable.
.............you have to be very diligent with watering

I hope this helped answer your question.

btw...just for the record.....trees roots do NOT necessarily mimic the top growth Or vice versa.
......................................tree roots are not all "pruned" by light...ficus for example
......................................the two colander method also depends a bit on physical pruning/restriction of roots by the inner colander's sides
......................................most of our opinions are based on our own experiences and preferences..while I believe in absolute rights and wrongs...very little of the information presented in this thread is scientific in nature and some that has been presented as such is of questionable value.Opinions are just that..opinions.Things are relative.Big to some is not big to others.Desired results are different for different people.For someone to insist that another's opinion is wrong is foolish.For someone to insist that another agree that his opinion is wrong is beyond the pale of egocentric.To see a comment addressed to someone else and internalize it as an obsession with yourself is more likely your own obsession with the commentor....lighten up fellows.None of us know it all.

andy

andy
 
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Vance Wood

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what are the pros and cons of a strainer as a pot?

If you read through the entire thread you will see that this has been covered rather well. But to put it into the short mode: A pot will cause roots to grow around the inside of the pot and eventually become root bound enough to strangle the tree if it is not root pruned periodically. A Strainer/Screen sided container/pond basket will automatically prune the roots with light and air as the roots extend beyond the perimeters of the screens/holes causing the roots to branch out into fine feeder roots and not to form the kind of tangled mess you will have with a pot.
 

Vance Wood

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Fox,


Vance Wood has a patent on a screen sided box that I assume could be made as large as you want.But,the effect of the screen will be limited as it will be so far away from the nebari that the root branching induced by air pruning would probably not be that significant in developing a compact and flat root system.

andy

You are partially correct here but you have missed a crucial point. The root branching over time extends to the entire root system, to the point that when you decide to remove the tree there are so many fine feeder roots throughout the entire root system it is possible to take a sharp saw and remove 50% or more of that soil mass right off the bottom. This induces a flat root system by disallowing a deep one. At this point you can put the tree into another training planter of a shallower configuration or even a bonsai pot. I have never found watering to be an issue that took more care than the trees in bonsai pots. I know that seeing all of the bare soil makes you think that you have to be careful to water a lot but it does not seem to work that way. Watering the same way you might water a tree in a bonsai pot works just fine, unless you come from that school that says you withhold water to keep the growth small, then you might have problems.
 
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You might find these pictures interesting and relevant to this thread. The colander method used in Japan is primarily (and maybe exclusively) used for the development of substantial trunks on shohin bonsai in a fairly quick time. Yes you can get substantial trunks also in the ground but: a) those in japan who are most famous for this method do not have the land available; and b) you can better control the growth (both foliage and root) when the trees are pot grown.
Black pines are especially used for this because of their vibrant growth and because this is their home habitat! - but I observed other species used also with this method (though not as prevalent as black pine). One thing to keep in mind when you think that you might be able to duplicate the same speed of this method in your area is the climate difference. In the Shizuoka area, the climate is relatively mild year round and summers are hot (check the towel over the head of the person in picture #1 - it was 100 degrees F that day). They can get a LOT more growth in a shorter time than in a colder climate like New England, USA for instance.
I did visit Mr. Kusida Matsuo's nursery also but, because of his frail age, he has scaled back his work greatly. These photo's were taken at another small home nursery that Mr. Urushibata (my teacher) took us to where the owner (name forgotten) was most proficient at this method. The first picture is of Mr. Urshibata discussing some aspect of this technique with the owner. The black pines were in small colanders for two years and are then placed in larger grow pots or colanders for another 2-3 more years. After this approx. 5 year time of trunk development, the time is then spent developing branching, ramification, more budding, shorter needles, etc. This is the time where the trees are taken out of the double colanders, placed in bonsai pots or training pots. The second picture is a 3 year seedling (notice that it is planted in only a river stone). You can see that one leader is left to grow unrestrained - some were over 5 feet long. The third picture shows a trunk after 4 or 5 years (here you see that the first leader was cut and then a new leader was left unrestricted to create directional taper). The third picture shows a tree after about 10 years.
A couple of notes:
This grower planted his seedlings in ONLY crushed stone (or river sand)! They were watered multiple times a day and fed aggressively.
The main reason that the smaller colander is later placed in a larger one is mentioned by Graydon in post #16. Anytime we repot a tree there is a period of stress that slows the growth down. To minimize this, the tree is simply potted into a larger container so that the growth remains continuous - some roots escape to the larger colander to assure continued growth while there is some restriction for fine roots to develop in the smaller colander. There is obviously much more to this process than this and others have mentioned some of these other factors in above posts but that is the main rationale. The description in the pine book by Mr. Matsuo is a good one. Mr. Urshibata grows a lot of fabulous shohin gardenia at his nursery and had hundreds of colanders with shohin gardenia's developing in his 'back lot' area.
John Romano
Rhode Island, USA 'the shohin state'
if you are interested, you can read my shohin bonsai blog at: http://knowledgeofbonsai.org/john_romano
 

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Vance Wood

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Thanks for referencing this method, it adds a lot to the discussion and dispels a lot of misconceptions.
 

agraham

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Great information and pictures, John.Thankyou.

andy
 
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Excellent post John and a remarkable testimonial to innovation. The river stone used looks to be about 1/8" which many would consider large for a Shohin, it obviously is not. I can only imagine the watering schedule in a climate with such a long growing season.

I particularly found it interesting that the main reason for the double colander use was to avoid re-potting and the related stress from such, while still taking advantage of the benefits offered to the roots by a screen sided container.



Will
 
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