Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
What do you consider larger trees? Size is only a reletive issue, give us some sort of parameter.
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Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Thank you very much for your consideration, as well as Will and Rick.
Anonymous User
Banned
Chris,
You words were, "One constraint not mentioned in any of the articles or in this thread, as far as I can tell, is that strainers and pond baskets are great for smaller trees. For larger trees, grow boxes or growing in the ground will be much more effective." clearly referring to both screen sided planters AND grow boxes.
You made the statement that screen sided planters are only great for smaller trees, implying that the same benefits they are used for would not apply to larger trees. This is a false assumption, the benefits do not magically disappear depending on tree size, screen sided planters will produce fine feeder roots on all sized trees, roots will still be air-pruned, and roots will still be forced to grow closer to the trunk as opposed to circling a pot.
You recommended that it would be more effective for larger trees to be in the ground as compared to screen sided planters...more effective for what exactly? You also mentioned it would be better for them in grow boxes as compared to screen sided planters, better for what exactly? Please explain.
Will
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Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
The only constraints on the size of the tree/planter is the grower's ability to lift the D***ed thing. A number of years ago I made a couple of these devices that went probably ten gallons and planted two Mugos in them. It took two grown men and or a dolly to move them. One of them is shown on this site somewhere and the other is not in a five gallon planter (screened). It now has a trunk size larger than my ankle and stands about eighteen inches tall. The other which is not in a bonsai pot has a trunk size about the size of my ankle and stands about eighteen inches tall. The idea that this device cannot be used for larger trees is not true, it is only the issue of practicality that makes it an issue---and weight.
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Anonymous User
Banned
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
When I first designed the planter I have the patent on it was with the idea that not only did it promote root growth of the type needed in bonsai but it was mobile, allowing one to rotate the tree occasionally to maximize top growth exposure to the sun. With this in mind the issue of practicality comes into play on the rotation principle only. It is rather difficult to rotate a tree that may way in excess of two-hundred pounds, which is what these two Mugos weighed until I reduced them both down to the lighter (75 pounds) five gallon planter, and one two seasons ago into a bonsai pot, of about 40 pounds total.
It has been said that a tree will not gain any girth in a planter like this which at first I though was true but have come to find out that over a long period of time the tree does in fact continue to thicken, perhaps not as fast as it would in the ground but it does not become stunted as it would in a bonsai pot where the roots are confined. The difference is that the tree's roots are not confined as in being strangled around a closed surface as they would be in a bonsai pot or other closed sided container. The roots are still allowed to grow without obstruction of the type that triggers the dwarfing response from a confined environment. What happens here is more like what a tree would encounter in the wild like some of the Pitch Pines I have been made aware of that have grown in pockets of scree, needles and leaf mold on the side of a mountain. So anyway, there are few ways this device can be used that I have not tried.
It has been said that a tree will not gain any girth in a planter like this which at first I though was true but have come to find out that over a long period of time the tree does in fact continue to thicken, perhaps not as fast as it would in the ground but it does not become stunted as it would in a bonsai pot where the roots are confined. The difference is that the tree's roots are not confined as in being strangled around a closed surface as they would be in a bonsai pot or other closed sided container. The roots are still allowed to grow without obstruction of the type that triggers the dwarfing response from a confined environment. What happens here is more like what a tree would encounter in the wild like some of the Pitch Pines I have been made aware of that have grown in pockets of scree, needles and leaf mold on the side of a mountain. So anyway, there are few ways this device can be used that I have not tried.
Chris Johnston
Omono
This is the kind of thing that drives people away. I clearly stated that pond baskets and strainers tend to limit the size of tree you can achieve. The words were strainers and pond baskets. Larger boxes or planters or growing in the ground are needed for larger trees, and who can say exactly at what size larger trees become larger trees?
Furthermore, who cares? It was a simple observation. The size of the container constrains the size of the tree to some extent. Can we find fault with this generalization?
Chris Johnston
Omono
That's exactly right, and my comment about size constraints had only to do with commercially available "strainers" or colanders and pond baskets. You are exactly right. Make one as big as you want and make sure it's strong enough to hold the tree and gallons of soil mix plus the water...and you could grow a redwood in it.
Chris Johnston
Omono
When you say "these two Mugos," what trees are you referring to, Vance? Are there photos I missed? Or perhaps an earlier discussion of two mugos that I missed?
Rick Moquin
Omono
Come spring I will, but they are in screen sided grow boxes. I believe you might have missed a good portion of the conversation or perhaps confused by the title.
Chris Johnston
Omono
Thanks. I don't think I was confused by the title. And unless there has been a rash of mass deletions like we have seen lately, I don't think I missed much of the conversation. My comments were pretty well defined into a specific category. What's missing here?
Anonymous User
Banned
I agree.
This may be what you meant Chris, but what you said was "...is that strainers and pond baskets are great for smaller trees. For larger trees, grow boxes or growing in the ground will be much more effective." (Post #55)
I disagreed and said that screen sided planters are effective for all sized trees and that the benefits of such do not magically disappear on larger trees. For fine root development the ground or grow boxes are not more effective than screen sided planters, no matter what size the tree.
I care, you posted something that was false in my opinion and I corrected it. Attempting to change what you said is not the same as supporting your statement. There is no fault with the generalization "that the size of the container constrains the size of the tree to some extent" at all, but this is not what you said. You plainly stated that "For larger trees, grow boxes or growing in the ground will be much more effective." This is simply not true, I'm sorry.
Just keeping it straight,
Will
Chris Johnston
Omono
Do you even understand how petty this sounds?
Anonymous User
Banned
I don't find refuting a questionable statement petty at all, in fact this is what keeps forums honest. I take it you will neither logically support your statement as quoted above nor admit your error or mistake?
For the record Chris, I have kept this straight to the point, only debating a direct statement made by you, in response you have said that This is the kind of thing that drives people away, Who cares anyway, and suggested I was petty. Can we keep the discussion focused on the subject please?
So in order to get back to the discussion at hand, it is safe to say, in the absense of serious rebuttal, that tree size does not effect the benefits of screen sided planters and that they are not limited to smaller trees as suggested.
I am often amazed at the different shapes and sizes of pond baskets I see at pond suppliers, U shaped, round, square, oval, and even ball shaped ones that come apart at the center....too bad they don't make wide, shallow ones...Vance have you tried this shape? The closest I have been able to find is plastic flats, not the kind with dididers, but the ones that have a plastic screen bottom and slots around the sides and are about 2.5' x1.5' at 3" deep
Will
For the record Chris, I have kept this straight to the point, only debating a direct statement made by you, in response you have said that This is the kind of thing that drives people away, Who cares anyway, and suggested I was petty. Can we keep the discussion focused on the subject please?
So in order to get back to the discussion at hand, it is safe to say, in the absense of serious rebuttal, that tree size does not effect the benefits of screen sided planters and that they are not limited to smaller trees as suggested.
I am often amazed at the different shapes and sizes of pond baskets I see at pond suppliers, U shaped, round, square, oval, and even ball shaped ones that come apart at the center....too bad they don't make wide, shallow ones...Vance have you tried this shape? The closest I have been able to find is plastic flats, not the kind with dididers, but the ones that have a plastic screen bottom and slots around the sides and are about 2.5' x1.5' at 3" deep
Will
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milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
Now boys... can't we all just get along? LOL 
Let's all take a deep breath and go sit in the zen garden and contemplate enhanced fine root growth. ;-)
Let's all take a deep breath and go sit in the zen garden and contemplate enhanced fine root growth. ;-)
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Here is the link on this site which could have been found with a simple search. http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1058&highlight=Mugo+Pine
This is one of the two I was talking about, the one styled a year ago Father's Day and doing nicely. It started out at about six foot tall and was placed in a custom made screen sided planter and allowed to develop a good root system for about three years. It was then drastically reduced down to a size where I put it into a five gallon screen sided Planter and allowed to develop for a further three or four years. A year ago on Father's day the tree was initially styled, drastically reduced, wired and placed in a bonsai pot for a club demonstration. As you can see the tree survived nicely and is now about eighteen inches tall. It's trunk is bigger than my wrist and only needs some refinement and pinching.
Rick Moquin
Omono
Chris,
You jumped in this conversation on post #55, whilst you might have been following the conversation in the background. The conversation with regards to modified pond baskets started on the second page. Large trees in modified pond baskets also took place between Graydon and I.
Someone else calls them screen sided containers, which is a better term IMO. I guess I'll have to get use to it.
Based on the context of your original post (#55) I took it that "pond baskets, colanders, and whatever else" was only good for small trees and seedlings. Nothing can be further from the truth.
I would also check out a similar discussion taking place at the Vault (Pinus Envy) where Tom explained it best.
As far as deletions are concerned I don't believe there was any, well at least not on my part. Paranoia is a curable disease you know
Chris Johnston
Omono
Thanks, Vance. I thought I got lost somewhere in there.
Chris Johnston
Omono
Chris,
You jumped in this conversation on post #55, whilst you might have been following the conversation in the background. The conversation with regards to modified pond baskets started on the second page. Large trees in modified pond baskets also took place between Graydon and I.
Someone else calls them screen sided containers, which is a better term IMO. I guess I'll have to get use to it.
Based on the context of your original post (#55) I took it that "pond baskets, colanders, and whatever else" was only good for small trees and seedlings. Nothing can be further from the truth.
I would also check out a similar discussion taking place at the Vault (Pinus Envy) where Tom explained it best.
As far as deletions are concerned I don't believe there was any, well at least not on my part. Paranoia is a curable disease you know
Yes, but sarcasm is not
. I know there were no deletions. I thought my post was fairly clear, I didn't say "and whatever else," I said "strainers and pond baskets" and I think someone would have to work pretty hard to twist that into more than it was.
Rick Moquin
Omono
Yes dear