Why I don't use turface anymore (with pics)

[GrimLore]

I am I think

I am not "Anti" just simply don't need to try it or Akadma, not saying it does not work. For me starting mostly all over this season and having spent a couple of seasons going with pumice and some different things I simply have no need or desire to change again. Now to be more clear I have far less room to experiment here at the new place and will never have the amount of trees I used to so once again it is what works for someone does... A lot like the Raffia I use and a few other things.

Grimmy

 

[FrankP999]

The Pine horse bedding is PURE Pine, nothing else and comes in 3 sizes. Grimmy

Grimmy,
Can you provide a link or more information on the "pine bedding" product you use? What brand is it?

Thanks

 

[63pmp]

Useless to you maybe...not to me and others it seems.

I agree if the fine is so fine that it really clogs the holes and doesn't drain but in my experience 1/16" grains are big enough to drain. Again, to each his own and my results speak for themselves.

It is meaningless because it cannot be defined or measured, it is not quantifiable.

You need to be discussing air filled porosity which is measurable.

The discussion is not about clogging of the drainage holes, it is about how much water is retained by capillarity after draining.

When you say 1/16" grains I guess you are saying the fraction retained after sieving with a 1/16" mesh. If so then the smallest grain size is 1.75 mm going upwards. I use a 2mm mesh size and this works for me in my climate, which is hot and dry, I'm guessing much like your climate. I would think, for a material with very fine pores like turface, (that is, no inherent porosity in which air may be retained after draining, such as with pumice) is too small for a cooler, wetter climate. In cooler, wetter climates there will be lower evaporation and transpiration from plants so the water held by capillarity will persist for far longer then a climate like yours. A larger particle size will have a greater air filled porosity and a lower saturated zone after draining, making for a healthier plant.

Grain sizes of 1mm will not clog a drainage hole, but the saturated zone held by capillarity will be very high and roots may well suffer from lack of oxygen. Combine warm, wet weather with low oxygen levels in the soil and conditions are perfect for phytophthora and other soil pathogens to infect the plants roots. Fungal attack is the main cause of root death in plants, not anoxia, in fact phytophora will not attack a plant root in anoxic conditions, it only attacks in low oxygen conditions within a specific temperature range. This is why air filled porosity is the important measurable factor of potting mix structure

Paul

 

[markyscott]

It is meaningless because it cannot be defined or measured, it is not quantifiable.

You need to be discussing air filled porosity which is measurable.

The discussion is not about clogging of the drainage holes, it is about how much water is retained by capillarity after draining.

When you say 1/16" grains I guess you are saying the fraction retained after sieving with a 1/16" mesh. If so then the smallest grain size is 1.75 mm going upwards. I use a 2mm mesh size and this works for me in my climate, which is hot and dry, I'm guessing much like your climate. I would think, for a material with very fine pores like turface, (that is, no inherent porosity in which air may be retained after draining, such as with pumice) is too small for a cooler, wetter climate. In cooler, wetter climates there will be lower evaporation and transpiration from plants so the water held by capillarity will persist for far longer then a climate like yours. A larger particle size will have a greater air filled porosity and a lower saturated zone after draining, making for a healthier plant.

Grain sizes of 1mm will not clog a drainage hole, but the saturated zone held by capillarity will be very high and roots may well suffer from lack of oxygen. Combine warm, wet weather with low oxygen levels in the soil and conditions are perfect for phytophthora and other soil pathogens to infect the plants roots. Fungal attack is the main cause of root death in plants, not anoxia, in fact phytophora will not attack a plant root in anoxic conditions, it only attacks in low oxygen conditions within a specific temperature range. This is why air filled porosity is the important measurable factor of potting mix structure

Paul

Paul knows. Thanks Paul for lending your voice.

Scott

 

[sikadelic]

Ok, ok, ok. You guys are way smarter than me regarding soil and its scientific properties. I wholeheartedly heed all of the great advice here from folks with many years in this art. Truly. Notice I have not chimed in during the soil debates? I have nothing to add, but am soaking it all up. It will be several more years before I have enough experience to see these effects you discuss with great vigor and understanding that I wish I had this early in my journey.

I have used turface for all of my trees. I use it in equal parts with pine bark and pumice (dry stall). I have screened everything to 1/8 and rinsed my inorganics. I also used pea gravel for the bottom inch or so for each of my trees. I only did so because my hardware cloth was 1/4 and I did not want to lose my components when I watered.

My question is this: since I used the pea gravel in the bottom inch, will that help to eliminate the saturation zone I may be experiencing with smaller particles? My soil depths are approximately 4-6 inches on average not counting the gravel.

Thanks for sharing all this great information.

 

[Poink88]

It is meaningless because it cannot be defined or measured, it is not quantifiable.

You need to be discussing air filled porosity which is measurable.

The discussion is not about clogging of the drainage holes, it is about how much water is retained by capillarity after draining.

When you say 1/16" grains I guess you are saying the fraction retained after sieving with a 1/16" mesh. If so then the smallest grain size is 1.75 mm going upwards. I use a 2mm mesh size and this works for me in my climate, which is hot and dry, I'm guessing much like your climate. I would think, for a material with very fine pores like turface, (that is, no inherent porosity in which air may be retained after draining, such as with pumice) is too small for a cooler, wetter climate. In cooler, wetter climates there will be lower evaporation and transpiration from plants so the water held by capillarity will persist for far longer then a climate like yours. A larger particle size will have a greater air filled porosity and a lower saturated zone after draining, making for a healthier plant.

Grain sizes of 1mm will not clog a drainage hole, but the saturated zone held by capillarity will be very high and roots may well suffer from lack of oxygen. Combine warm, wet weather with low oxygen levels in the soil and conditions are perfect for phytophthora and other soil pathogens to infect the plants roots. Fungal attack is the main cause of root death in plants, not anoxia, in fact phytophora will not attack a plant root in anoxic conditions, it only attacks in low oxygen conditions within a specific temperature range. This is why air filled porosity is the important measurable factor of potting mix structure

Paul

Again, if I need to, I will apply wick to my pot. Problem solved.

All these are well and good but I will point to the potted plants again...in potting soil. Most have super small particles...most of them should have died already if they can read and understand what you wrote. It is a great technical write-up...but I have not seen it myself. Maybe I am just lucky???

Thank you.

 

[joepa82]

You guys are all stupid! Goons mix is the only way to go. 30% pine bark, 30% table salt, and 39% crushed up flintstone vitamins

I am so bummed noone asked me what the final 1% is.

 

[markyscott]

Ok, ok, ok. You guys are way smarter than me regarding soil and its scientific properties. I wholeheartedly heed all of the great advice here from folks with many years in this art. Truly. Notice I have not chimed in during the soil debates? I have nothing to add, but am soaking it all up. It will be several more years before I have enough experience to see these effects you discuss with great vigor and understanding that I wish I had this early in my journey.

I have used turface for all of my trees. I use it in equal parts with pine bark and pumice (dry stall). I have screened everything to 1/8 and rinsed my inorganics. I also used pea gravel for the bottom inch or so for each of my trees. I only did so because my hardware cloth was 1/4 and I did not want to lose my components when I watered.

My question is this: since I used the pea gravel in the bottom inch, will that help to eliminate the saturation zone I may be experiencing with smaller particles? My soil depths are approximately 4-6 inches on average not counting the gravel.

Thanks for sharing all this great information.

Effectively, a drainage layer shortens the pot. The saturated zone normally found at the bottom of the pot without a drainage layer will be found above it - shortening the depth of your pot by approximately the height of the drainage layer. A key dependency on the height of the saturated zone is the difference in grain size between the drainage layer and the planting media - if you have a very coarse-grained drainage layer and a very fine grained planting medium, the height of the saturated zone will be maximum. As the grain size difference decreases, so does the height of the saturated zone perched above the drainage layer.

Scott

 

[markyscott]

I am so bummed noone asked me what the final 1% is.

Wait - what's the final 1%?

Scott

 

[edprocoat]

I wanted to post about my use Pea Gravel and drainage. I always put a layer of Pea Gravel at the bottom of my pots, not an inch like Sikadelic posted about but just enough to cover the bottom of the pot with the stones. The round stones suspend my mix about 1/8 inch and keep it from clogging.

I have only one time ever had drainage problems using Pea Gravel which killed my tree. I was out of Bonsai mix and I bought a bag of Hoffman Bonsai Mix. It looked great in a 2 quart bag and was a little pricey. It was raining every other day that summer hardly ever had to water things. When I noticed the brown foliage it was too late. I removed it from the pot and most the roots were rotted soft and black. The mix had fine sand and fine potting soil along with lava, granite, pine bark and pumice. The fine stuff formed a layer of muck in my Pea gravel and did not drain, when dry this layer was like hardened clay. All my other trees were ok despite the constant rain, it was definitely the Hoffman's mix.

ed

 

[markyscott]

I would add that I think Japanese maples require at least 20% AFP in a 10 cm deep pot. Every species of plant has different needs.

I agree and I'm interested in any data or studies that you can point me to that document this.

Thanks
Scott

 

[63pmp]

Again, if I need to, I will apply wick to my pot. Problem solved.

All these are well and good but I will point to the potted plants again...in potting soil. Most have super small particles...most of them should have died already if they can read and understand what you wrote. It is a great technical write-up...but I have not seen it myself. Maybe I am just lucky???

Thank you.

I experimented with wicks about ten years ago. they are good for few months but are unreliable as you need excellent contact of the wick with the saturated zone of the potting mix.

I don't know what potting soil is, must be an American term. Do you mean commercial potting mix?

I don't understand by what you mean when you say "you had not seen it"; you must have read it if you think its technical.

Paul

 

[Dav4]

I am so bummed noone asked me what the final 1% is.

Medical marijuana.

 

[Dav4]

In all seriousness, this has been one of the best soil threads yet in my opinion....thanks for all who participated...good stuff.

 

[sikadelic]

Being a turface user, I wanted to comment and say that my soil feels completely dry to the touch within 6-8 hours after watering in full sun on an average day. I stick my finger 2-3" into the corner each time to check and I haven't noticed any drainage problems yet. I am not disputing any of the claims, merely stating what I have personally observed.

I should also add that I have only been using this mix since early February. It is very early on, but I will continue to monitor for the problems others have mentioned.

 

[joepa82]

Wait - what's the final 1%?

Scott

Thank you for asking. it is different for different species.

For maples, its love.
For junipers, childrens laughter.
For tropicals, the threat of physical violence.
For pines, turface.

 

[Gene Deci]

I experimented with wicks about ten years ago. they are good for few months but are unreliable as you need excellent contact of the wick with the saturated zone of the potting mix.

I don't know what potting soil is, must be an American term. Do you mean commercial potting mix?

I don't understand by what you mean when you say "you had not seen it"; you must have read it if you think its technical.

Paul

If you use the strands of a mop head, be sure they are synthetic fiber. I have wicks that still worked well after three years. The only time I had trouble was when I used something that deteriorated - it was cotton I think.

 

[Poink88]

If you use the strands of a mop head, be sure they are synthetic fiber. I have wicks that still worked well after three years. The only time I had trouble was when I used something that deteriorated - it was cotton I think.

There are 2 types of people. When they encounter problems/failures, one looks for what to replace it with, the other looks for ways to fix it.

Granted that there are things not worth working with but most of the time, it is not. Food for thought.

 

[lordy]

There are 2 types of people. When they encounter problems/failures, one looks for what to replace it with, the other looks for ways to fix it.

Granted that there are things not worth working with but most of the time, it is not. Food for thought.

I dont understand most of these statements. The first seems redundant. The second just doesnt make sense to me. It is not what?

Oh, I almost forgot the requisite emoticon.

 

[Oliver Muscio]

OK, as a counter example (sort of), I just potted a Chinese elm (ulmus parvifolia) that I had dug up a couple of years back and planted in a grow-box, using mostly Mule Mix (very similar to Turface), with about 20% pine bark and maybe 10% granite grit (unnecessary, I think.) The box was filled with fine roots from top to bottom (excepting the top 1/4" or so, perhaps.) They looked very healthy. (Sorry, I neglected to take any pictures during the potting process.)

Granted, this mix was not pure Mule Mix, and elms grow roots like crazy, anyway, but still...
Oliver