Why I don't use turface anymore (with pics)

[davetree]

I used turface for several years in different types of mixes. Turface is cheap, so why not ? After using it I was not happy with the roots and health of some if my trees. There was some water-logging going on. I have started to switch out the turface to a more uniform mix, and here's why. This is a cup of medium size akadama, lava, pumice and screened turface in equal amounts. After watering the cup about 10-15 times the next pic is the result. See how the turface has dropped to the bottom. There is none in the top half of the cup. If you look closely the very small particles have dropped all the way to the bottom. You can watch them wiggle their way downward as the water goes through. Actually you don't even need water. If you chopstick the dry mix the turface drops out of sight. Same thing happens with small akadama, small lava and small pumice, it takes a little longer, but the turface particle is still not big enough and will drop to the bottom. If it was 2-3 times bigger I would use it.

 

[Poink88]

This is true with ANY material...you will see the fines settle at the bottom given the same treatment (unless the material is buoyant).

 

[Poink88]

Do another experiment...use akadama, pumice, and marbles. See which ones settle at the bottom. Will you replace that material?

I think the real question is what size is acceptable.

To me, as long as it is free draining then it should be fine. If water can go through it...so can air. JMHO.

 

[coh]

You're not really supposed to mix particles of different sizes, right? At least that's what I've always been told, because the smaller particles will fill in the spaces between the larger particles so you lose the benefit of the larger particles. So if you use turface as a major soil component, I think you'd want to size your other components similarly (that's the big complaint with turface, particle size). If you make a mix of equal-sizes lava, pumice, akadama, turface, does the turface still settle to the bottom?

Chris

 

[Poink88]

If you make a mix of equal-sizes lava, pumice, akadama, turface, does the turface still settle to the bottom?

I bet not. Look at the 2nd pic...you can see finer akadama and pumice mixed with Turface at the bottom.

 

[nathanbs]

He stated that it was due to its small size and if he get bigger particles he would still use it.

 

[Poink88]

He stated that it was due to its small size and if he get bigger particles he would still use it.

Yes. To which I responded...

I think the real question is what size is acceptable.

To me, as long as it is free draining then it should be fine. If water can go through it...so can air. JMHO.

 

[nathanbs]

I bet not. Look at the 2nd pic...you can see finer akadama and pumice mixed with Turface at the bottom.

No I think that's all turface as you can see the akadama he uses is much larger

 

[nathanbs]

Yes. To which I responded...

1/16-1/4 but keep the size fairly consistant and remove the 1/16 if you want the soil drier and remove the 1/4 if you want it wetter

 

[Poink88]

No I think that's all turface as you can see the akadama he uses is much larger

I do not know akadama but I know there are several there that are not turface. See the white and red stuff mixed in from middle downwards?

 

[Poink88]

1/16-1/4 but keep the size fairly consistant and remove the 1/16 if you want the soil drier and remove the 1/4 if you want it wetter

I bet Turface is within that parameter.

 

[davetree]

The white stuff is pumice the red is lava the larger brown is akadama. The point is the size of the particle. Small akadama, small lava and small pumice are still twice as big as turface. I don't know where to get smaller lava or pumice or akadama. Unless you just sift out the fines and just use those.

 

[davetree]

Do another experiment...use akadama, pumice, and marbles. See which ones settle at the bottom. Will you replace that material?

I think the real question is what size is acceptable.

To me, as long as it is free draining then it should be fine. If water can go through it...so can air. JMHO.

Yes I thought that is pretty much what I was saying. Also it is not so free draining once it gets to the bottom.

 

[davetree]

He stated that it was due to its small size and if he get bigger particles he would still use it.

Thank you for stating it simply.

 

[davetree]

You're not really supposed to mix particles of different sizes, right? At least that's what I've always been told, because the smaller particles will fill in the spaces between the larger particles so you lose the benefit of the larger particles. So if you use turface as a major soil component, I think you'd want to size your other components similarly (that's the big complaint with turface, particle size). If you make a mix of equal-sizes lava, pumice, akadama, turface, does the turface still settle to the bottom?

Chris

Many people do mix different size particles. That is exactly the point of my post. Turface is just too small, even sifted, for my purposes.

 

[nathanbs]

I bet Turface is within that parameter.

i would say the turface is approx 1/16th and the average akadama and lava that turface users have access to readily is often times 1/4"-3/8" so I would say the problem is within the extremes of the two sizes. The problem would be no diiferent if the akadama were the 1/16" product. If I saw a reason to I could use turface without issue as I could pair it up with similar sized pumice and lava

 

[davetree]

I think that a turface sized mix might be good for shohin or wet loving trees. Maybe not so good for evergreens.

 

[Poink88]

It seems "free draining" is relatively defined. With finer ingredients there will be more lag before water totally flushes down (no contesting that)...but we are just talking mere seconds difference here (if that).

To me, I see that as an advantage actually. Being a miser, I want the water and fertilizer to have time to adhere before leaving the pot. Waste is waste in my book.

If I want less water, I will use a smaller pot or reduce my soil. Problem solved (also).

Dave, not questioning you. Just pointing out things so it doesn't get clouded for some. I am sure they are as confused now as they could ever be with all the arguments going on. LOL

I am here to balance and present the other side, not to skew facts.

 

[Poink88]

i would say the turface is approx 1/16th ...

Either my Turface (MVP) is bigger or you are mistaken. I would say it is at least twice to 3x that.

 

[coh]

Many people do mix different size particles. That is exactly the point of my post. Turface is just too small, even sifted, for my purposes.

Many people are doing it wrong (as you did) and that's probably why they are having bad results.

The people I know who use it successfully - such as Julian Adams - mix the turface with similarly sized particles. For instance, he uses about 70% turface, 20% granite grit (same size as turface) and the remainder fine bark or peat chunks.

Don't try to force turface to be something it isn't and you'll probably have more success.

Chris