Redwood Ryan
Masterpiece
We aren't? We're just criticizing your method and goal of a large tree with a species that won't obtain that look.
Tall jungle tree type bonsai inspiration (help)
- Thread starter Disgruntled_ficus
- Start date
We aren't? We're just criticizing your method and goal of a large tree with a species that won't obtain that look.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
You have made a basic mistake.
We are NOT growing ficus indoors. We are growing Ficus BONSAI indoors. There is a difference. If you're not familiar with the differences and minimize them, you've not been doing bonsai for very long.
It sounds pretentious, but Bonsai is a combination of art and horticulture. The real meaning of that statement translates as --We have to grow to fit an aim. Simply willing a foliage pad to appear where it needs to be isn't possible. Bonsai aren't produced by chance. ALL of the good ones have been specifically trained to become what they are with a regimen of specific cultivation. To endure the techniques used on them, bonsai require intense growing conditions and specific fertilization programs to induce the kind of growth needed to fuel all the pinching, pruning and gradual branch ramification needed for that pad. Bonsai don't just "wind up" as bonsai.
I know I'm probably only speaking Greek to you at this point. You've taken what people with years of experience growing bonsai as an attack on your methods, which is a shame. If you REALLY want to produce a plant like those you posted using only a terrarium alone, you're simply not going to get it in your lifetime, even with a tropical tree with no dormant period.
At the risk of being a bigger a-hole--, even if you have a degree in horticulture, you apparently don't have any experience with bonsai. (Post a pic of one your "finished" trees if you want to prove me wrong).
Your needs might be better served by posting on the hort page you originally listed here. They seem more in tune with what you're asking.
We are NOT growing ficus indoors. We are growing Ficus BONSAI indoors. There is a difference. If you're not familiar with the differences and minimize them, you've not been doing bonsai for very long.
It sounds pretentious, but Bonsai is a combination of art and horticulture. The real meaning of that statement translates as --We have to grow to fit an aim. Simply willing a foliage pad to appear where it needs to be isn't possible. Bonsai aren't produced by chance. ALL of the good ones have been specifically trained to become what they are with a regimen of specific cultivation. To endure the techniques used on them, bonsai require intense growing conditions and specific fertilization programs to induce the kind of growth needed to fuel all the pinching, pruning and gradual branch ramification needed for that pad. Bonsai don't just "wind up" as bonsai.
I know I'm probably only speaking Greek to you at this point. You've taken what people with years of experience growing bonsai as an attack on your methods, which is a shame. If you REALLY want to produce a plant like those you posted using only a terrarium alone, you're simply not going to get it in your lifetime, even with a tropical tree with no dormant period.
At the risk of being a bigger a-hole--, even if you have a degree in horticulture, you apparently don't have any experience with bonsai. (Post a pic of one your "finished" trees if you want to prove me wrong).
Your needs might be better served by posting on the hort page you originally listed here. They seem more in tune with what you're asking.
Disgruntled_ficus
Yamadori
Why would it take a lifetime to grow a ficus bonsai under ideal conditions? You guys dont seem to understand basic plant physiology. If it can be done outdoors in FL then why cant it be done under ideal conditions in a terrarium. Its the lack of and rejection of objective, factual knowledge that really irks me.
edit:
And if indoor bonsai cant be developed in a lifetime why does Redwood have 30 of them? You guys have a logic problem.
edit:
And if indoor bonsai cant be developed in a lifetime why does Redwood have 30 of them? You guys have a logic problem.
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Redwood Ryan
Masterpiece
BECAUSE IT'S STILL INDOORS. Your little light comes nowhere close to matching the power of the sun. You don't seem to understand basic indoor growing.
Disgruntled_ficus
Yamadori
Do you really want to me to sit down and quantify how much PAR my trees are getting? hint: You are going to feel pretty stupid if I do... Look at my earlier post on lighting.
Also,
At first you said you have 10 times the amount of light that I do. Now its near 20 times (2000W), but thats over 30 trees. So imagining that those are spaced out and you actually have 2000W... 2000W / 30 = 66W per tree. My trees are sitting under roughly the same light with bulbs with narrow peaks in PAR regions.
Tell me more about your lighting and setup so I can put you in your place. footprint, bulb type, bulb temp, photoperiod, humidity, air circulation...
Go ahead...
Redwood Ryan
Masterpiece
I'm not going to sit here and argue with a troll who believes he has more experience than me simply because he has a piece of paper. Show me one of your trees that actually amounts to something.
You aren't a bonsai grower, you're an upset terrarium grower who can't come to accept the fact that they're wrong. You aren't going to put me in my place, I've been growing indoors for over 6 years. Your trees are not sitting under similar conditions. My lights are a helluva lot more powerful and have far better penetration. Congrats, you've got some terrarium plants. Go tell your Mom.
You aren't a bonsai grower, you're an upset terrarium grower who can't come to accept the fact that they're wrong. You aren't going to put me in my place, I've been growing indoors for over 6 years. Your trees are not sitting under similar conditions. My lights are a helluva lot more powerful and have far better penetration. Congrats, you've got some terrarium plants. Go tell your Mom.
Disgruntled_ficus
Yamadori
Exactly what I thought. You dont exist in the land of facts and reality.
Redwood Ryan
Masterpiece
And there he goes trying to use facts over personal experience. I just took a shit that looked a lot like your forum posts.
Disgruntled_ficus
Yamadori
Im ignoring posts from Redwood until he posts specs on his setup. Someone let me know if he does. Thanks.
Redwood Ryan
Masterpiece
That took long enough 
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
P
All of us idiots here know there is no such thing as an "indoor" tree. They all evolved outside. Growing trees in containers is highly unnatural, growing trees in a container inside a house is doubly so (And FWIW, a terrarium can in no way have identical conditions to natural habitats of trees) With your basic understanding of plant physiology, you should understand that.
Since you're so facile at lighting charts, you can answer your own question about Florida. How many lumens does a tree in full Florida sunshine get? Compare to indoor lighting set ups, compare "outdoor" results, with "indoor" trees with substantial lighting set ups. For a little help on some decent indoor trees, see here:
http://www.bonsaihunk.us/cultural.html
Compare to outdoor grown ficus
http://artofbonsai.org/galleries/jsmith.php
FWIW, give Jerry's site a thorough going over. He might even provide you with some ammunition in your argument over indoor terrarium trees, but if you ask him if that's going to get you what you're looking for, I'd be very surprised...
Your findings are hardly objective. They are crafted to "put us in our place."
I wish you were as bright as you say your lightbulbs are. I find it ironic that you posted photos of a ficus that you wanted to emulate, but didn't notice (or conveniently ignore) that plant wasn't grown or developed in a terrarium.
All of us idiots here know there is no such thing as an "indoor" tree. They all evolved outside. Growing trees in containers is highly unnatural, growing trees in a container inside a house is doubly so (And FWIW, a terrarium can in no way have identical conditions to natural habitats of trees) With your basic understanding of plant physiology, you should understand that.
Since you're so facile at lighting charts, you can answer your own question about Florida. How many lumens does a tree in full Florida sunshine get? Compare to indoor lighting set ups, compare "outdoor" results, with "indoor" trees with substantial lighting set ups. For a little help on some decent indoor trees, see here:
http://www.bonsaihunk.us/cultural.html
Compare to outdoor grown ficus
http://artofbonsai.org/galleries/jsmith.php
FWIW, give Jerry's site a thorough going over. He might even provide you with some ammunition in your argument over indoor terrarium trees, but if you ask him if that's going to get you what you're looking for, I'd be very surprised...
Your findings are hardly objective. They are crafted to "put us in our place."
Giga
Masterpiece
you guys are both wrong- let me politely say(not really), that disgruntled your lighting is way underpowered and very inefficient - CFL's are very old technology and you will not get good growth with no room for the roots to grow and poor lighting-The air and humidity are fine in the terrarium-not ideal but will work
Redwood you have great material and get ok growth BUT you don't know as much as you think, though your setup is much better then most. This argument started because you both think your way is best when it's not. JKL actually hit it on the head when he said to get masterpiece lvl ficus you need to live in the tropics. BUT and a big "but" you can get pretty good growth if you have a good setup. I've been growing tree and tropical plants for 15 years and all done indoors and under powerful custom LED fixture(I built)- not the overpriced crappy blue/red ones. Just to show you what I mean here's some proof in the pudding, while somewhat new to ficus I am not new to tree biology and growing in unideal conditions, aka indoors
http://www.bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/large-ficus-score-need-help-with-id.17738/
Red mangroves grown from seed completely indoors under led-7 year old with lots of aerial roots
I also have massive lush vivariums that I'll post pics too if ya want
Redwood you have great material and get ok growth BUT you don't know as much as you think, though your setup is much better then most. This argument started because you both think your way is best when it's not. JKL actually hit it on the head when he said to get masterpiece lvl ficus you need to live in the tropics. BUT and a big "but" you can get pretty good growth if you have a good setup. I've been growing tree and tropical plants for 15 years and all done indoors and under powerful custom LED fixture(I built)- not the overpriced crappy blue/red ones. Just to show you what I mean here's some proof in the pudding, while somewhat new to ficus I am not new to tree biology and growing in unideal conditions, aka indoors
http://www.bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/large-ficus-score-need-help-with-id.17738/
Red mangroves grown from seed completely indoors under led-7 year old with lots of aerial roots
I also have massive lush vivariums that I'll post pics too if ya want
MidMichBonsai
Shohin
Because creating a bonsai requires different techniques then nature. All of these trees want to be full-size as they would be in nature. In order to get a miniature tree that "looks" like it does in nature, we have to apply many techniques that the reduce them to the appropriate size while maintaining their health and vigor. This is not a simple formula of big tree, natural habitat = small tree, in smaller natural habitat. It's not like that.
That is what everyone has been trying to tell you. Bonsai is the practice of techniques that allow you to gain the appearance and scale of large trees in miniature form. What we are saying is that bonsai that look like what you are trying to achieve, are NOT RAISED INDOORS but outside in regions where they grow naturally.
Disgruntled_ficus
Yamadori
You have a logic problem. I cant debate with you.
Disgruntled_ficus
Yamadori
you guys are both wrong- let me politely say(not really), that disgruntled your lighting is way underpowered and very inefficient - CFL's are very old technology and you will not get good growth with no room for the roots to grow and poor lighting-The air and humidity are fine in the terrarium-not ideal but will work
Redwood you have great material and get ok growth BUT you don't know as much as you think, though your setup is much better then most. This argument started because you both think your way is best when it's not. JKL actually hit it on the head when he said to get masterpiece lvl ficus you need to live in the tropics. BUT and a big "but" you can get pretty good growth if you have a good setup. I've been growing tree and tropical plants for 15 years and all done indoors and under powerful custom LED fixture(I built)- not the overpriced crappy blue/red ones. Just to show you what I mean here's some proof in the pudding, while somewhat new to ficus I am not new to tree biology and growing in unideal conditions, aka indoors
http://www.bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/large-ficus-score-need-help-with-id.17738/
Red mangroves grown from seed completely indoors under led-7 year old with lots of aerial roots
I also have massive lush vivariums that I'll post pics too if ya want
Finally, someone that ACTUALLY knows what he is talking about and has REAL relevant experience. Great post. Why dont you explain to deadwood the advantages of LED lighting.
I would argue the point of unideal conditions. Ideal conditions are ideal regardless of whether they are synthetic or natural.
Id be happy to know what you think appropriate lighting for a indoor ficus is...
edit: I would also say that your trees under LED would benefit from a fan blowing on them and that you wont get as much humidity as my terrarium
edit2: Actually im starting to have doubts here. The red/blue aren't crappy... they are specially designed maximize PAR.... Share some specs
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BrianBay9
Masterpiece
Disgruntled, I personally have no doubt you can grow significant ficus inside, within your lifetime - if you're prepared to spend enough money to do it. Most of us have higher priorities for our cash, and therefore limits on lights and the environment we're willing to create. Most here doubt that your current environment will suffice, and from my experience I would agree. Please do the experiment and report back on your results.
Turning a significant ficus into a bonsai will require acquisition of a particular set of skills and artistic judgment which you may or may not acquire over time.
Good luck
Brian
Turning a significant ficus into a bonsai will require acquisition of a particular set of skills and artistic judgment which you may or may not acquire over time.
Good luck
Brian
lordy
Omono
Not everyone has criticized you. I wont allow myself to worry about such a childish argument and lower myself to your level. There is no end game, there is no value in expending the effort.
jk_lewis
Masterpiece
I'd say "adios" but despite that promise you keep on arguing.
Giga
Masterpiece
I don't approach led light per tree's species specifically, what I approach is the spectrum and intensity, basically trying to emulate the sun. I make diy modules with very powerful full spectrum leds light. I'm not gonna go in nanometer or spectrums, just by colors, to simplify things here but here's whats on my led light fixtures
bridgelux vero 29 5k 50w
breidgelux vero 18 5700k 30w x2
Luxeon es 3w deep red x 12
luxeon es 3w red x 6
luxeon es 3w blue x 6
luxeon es 3w true green x 6
luxeon m 11w royal blue x 4
epistar full spectrum violet 6w 400/420/420nm x 12
Depending on your knowledge of leds that serious power, those are best leds you can get for spectrum and power-much better then those crappy red blue ones you can buy. I don't run each module at full power but it'll grow anything and everything pretty well-Some people say this is way over board, which it might be, but I'm trying to emulate the sun and through years of experimenting I'm pretty satisfied with the results. The mangroves and never been outside in all those years and done just as well where I am, then in tropics(well, as well as be expected indoors).
bridgelux vero 29 5k 50w
breidgelux vero 18 5700k 30w x2
Luxeon es 3w deep red x 12
luxeon es 3w red x 6
luxeon es 3w blue x 6
luxeon es 3w true green x 6
luxeon m 11w royal blue x 4
epistar full spectrum violet 6w 400/420/420nm x 12
Depending on your knowledge of leds that serious power, those are best leds you can get for spectrum and power-much better then those crappy red blue ones you can buy. I don't run each module at full power but it'll grow anything and everything pretty well-Some people say this is way over board, which it might be, but I'm trying to emulate the sun and through years of experimenting I'm pretty satisfied with the results. The mangroves and never been outside in all those years and done just as well where I am, then in tropics(well, as well as be expected indoors).
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Giga, are these systems being used for terrariums or for benches, or both?
Would you recommend them for terrariums?
And hats off to you for your work. I used to keep reef tanks. I don't envy your electric bill.
Would you recommend them for terrariums?
And hats off to you for your work. I used to keep reef tanks. I don't envy your electric bill.
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