turning shoots to roots..

[Random Usr]

Can it be done? Like thread grafting roots on.. can you turn shoots that sprout from the very base of the tree into roots? I have a hornbeam that is throwing shoots from the very bottom of the base in between roots. if I could somehow bury them or turn them into roots, I would have a killer nebari in no time. My common sense tells me that if I bury them they will just keep growing and pop up out of the soil at some point. Once they do, can you cut them back to form roots?? 1st could this work? Secondly, how would it work or not work, horticultuarally? Thanks in advance for any input and or advice.

Right, let's see if I can explain in English what might be done ....... and what I've done myself so far.

Bend your "base shoot" towards the ground, chose a point along it, give it a slice, hold it open with a toothpick, and bury it. In other words, standard "Ground Layering" technique. Once roots have developed sever the excess shoot (beyond the roots) and hope for the best.

My Sorbus so far:

I didn't prepare these photos with the purpose of posting them, so excuse the confusion. I started out threading 2 saplings in order to add two roots to the lop-sided nebari.

Here (below) you can see the entrance of one, the exit of the other. RIGHT SIDE.

LEFT SIDE below, entrance and exit.

Here (below) you can see both sides - one sapling planted on the right - threaded through the trunk and out on the left. Second sapling planted on the left - threaded through the trunk and out on the right. This photo is clearer than the previous ones. I eventually changed my mind and eliminated one sapling all-together. And the reason? The question that I've always wanted answered about the possibility to reverse sap direction ..... and a light-bulb went on inside my head, and the challenge was impossible for me to resist!

So I removed one sapling. .........
This (below) is the remaining sapling. I planted its' roots into the ground (on the left), threaded it through the trunk (exiting on the right). Once it was long enough and sprouting quite a lot of foliage. I ground layered it, slicing half-way though it, burying it in the ground (on the right) and bringing the growing tip up from the ground and supporting it. The ground layer took well so I severed the extended growth completely, and I continue to nurture the roots, now OBVIOUSLY feeding back in the reverse direction towards the trunk. You can see that I left some of the "new" (pre-ground-layered) foliage. The reason I left it is because I am experimenting as I go along and it seems like a good idea to encourage the new roots to prosper (in the reverse direction) by giving them something to "feed". In other words, until I am certain that the single sapling has succeeded in "taking to the trunk" at both the entrance and exit points, I don't want to take any chances by "counting my chickens". I am waiting for full fusion at the exit point (at the right) before I remove the sacrifice nurse foliage.

Whew! I hope that I explained well enough to understand!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Your example is a thread graft, not really a ground layer, but you're trying to get it to throw roots, which it may do simply by being buried.

Yes, it is possible get roots on both sides of the thread graft, but be sure to raise the soil level, as they'll thicken faster underground. Usually this is done with seedlings that already have roots on one side.

See the example on a Japanese Maple, with several seedlings thread-grafted through the trunk, and a shot of the progress 12 months later. The largest one across the front has roots on both sides of the stock.


Also, notice how the roots on the maple ramify pretty close to the trunk? You'll want to emulate that to some degree as you're working with your tree. The soil level needs to be raised, and you want them to ramify/start dividing closer to the trunk than they are now.

 

[Random Usr]

Your example is a thread graft, not really a ground layer .....

WHOSE example "is a thread graft, not really a ground layer"? Mine or the OP's? Mine is clearly both a thread graft AND a ground layer.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

WHOSE example "is a thread graft, not really a ground layer"? Mine or the OP's? Mine is clearly both a thread graft AND a ground layer.

Yours, as it was clearly the only example at the time I replied.

 

[Random Usr]

Yours .....

1. It's a sapling, right?
2. It's planted in soil, right?
3. Its' sapling roots are growing in the soil, right?
4. Towards the top of the sapling ”trunk” (below its crown) was sliced half-way through, right?
5. The slice was held open with a tooth pick, right?
6. That portion was buried in the soil, right?
7. The tip (above the buried slice) was trained above the soil, in an upright fashion, right?
8. It developed roots, right?
9. Numbers 1 to 8 describe classic ”Ground Layering”, right?
10. The fact that it was threaded through the trunk of another plant (on its way from its own roots to it's GROUND LAYERED roots) has NOTHING to do with it.
    
11. What's the part that's confusing you??

12. English is not my first language. Is that the problem?

..... as it was clearly the only example at the time I replied.

Is that a sarcastic, pseudo-exasperated comment or am I only imagining it?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I'm not confused, and there's really no problem, unless you aren't aware that your comments have an insolent tone.

However, the roots in your example really need to be buried deeper and should ramify much closer to the trunk to communicate age. They currently give the impression of a very young plant, and emerge far-too high above the soil level to portray any illusion of age, taper, and stability. Aged trees have nebari: heavy roots that crawl across the soil, gripping it in all directions, and buttressing the trunk through years of weather.

 

[Random Usr]

I'm not confused.

You must be confused because not only is the project a bonified ”GROUND LAYERING” (despite your comments to the contraty) but you forgot to mention that (the main issue) in this response of yours. Did you forget or do you not agree that it is a true GROUND LAYERING? Maybe you just forgot. That's OK, I sometimes get confused myself. I'm 68 years old, you know.

... the roots in your example really need to be buried deeper and should ramify much closer to the trunk to communicate age.

I've made no mention of any wish to ”communicate age”. My project is CLEARLY one of THREAD-GRAFTING, GROUND-LAYERING, and the possibility of REVERSE FLOW from the roots. I believe I have suceeded on all points.

… there's really no problem, unless you aren't aware that your comments have an insolent tone.

I have explained that English is not my first language as applies to my attemtpt to present my on-going project. If my presentation seemed ”insolent” I really don't see how that can be possible. However, if you are referring to my reply to YOUR insulent response then I really don't care much how you interpret it. I am here for the sake of BONSAI. I don't like bullying very much …. if that's what you are trying to do.

Would you like to clarify your statement that this is not a GROUND LAYER or are we now in agreement that it is a GROUND LAYER?

 

[coh]

Let me see if I've got this all straight. You took a seedling (or rooted cutting, can't remember) and threaded it through the base of the main tree. The roots were planted on one side (i.e. a standard root/thread graft). Then you took the other side, the growing tip...and bent the branch down to create a ground layer. This produced roots. Then, you cut off the growth that was occurring past the roots, and left a small area of growth (foliage) that is between where the branch exits the trunk, and where the roots formed. You claim this proves that reverse flow is occurring, with the newly created roots feeding backwards toward the new growth closer to the trunk.

I would argue that this does not prove anything, at least not as long as the actively growing shoot is still attached to the roots via the shoot that passes through the trunk. I would bet that nutrients and water are still flowing through those original pathways to the growing foliage. The only way to prove the flow has reversed would be to sever that connection and see if the growth continues.

It is an interesting concept, though, as if it does work it would enable one to effectively graft two roots onto a tree with one seedling.

Brian, have you seen evidence from any of your grafts that this is viable long term? In other words, if you eventually remove the growing point on the exit side, do those new roots continue to develop or do they eventually wither away?

Chris

 

[Geo]

Nebari: Do not apologize or think that your English is anything less than very good. There are 'native' speakers on this forum whose English is inferior to yours.

 

[Random Usr]

Let me see if I've got this all straight. You took a seedling (or rooted cutting, can't remember) and threaded it through the base of the main tree. The roots were planted on one side (i.e. a standard root/thread graft). Then you took the other side, the growing tip...and bent the branch down to create a ground layer. This produced roots. Then, you cut off the growth that was occurring past the roots, and left a small area of growth (foliage) that is between where the branch exits the trunk, and where the roots formed. You claim this proves that reverse flow is occurring, with the newly created roots feeding backwards toward the new growth closer to the trunk.

Yes exactly, that is what I did and that is my stated conclusion, correct.

I would argue that this does not prove anything …..

That's a fair argument.

… at least not as long as the actively growing shoot is still attached to the roots via the shoot that passes through the trunk.

No,I do not agree. I would say that your arguement is good untill that point because it ought to be obvious (maybe too strong a word?) that those ground-layered roots must be feeding AT LEAST the folliage between the roots and the trunk, ie. a reverse of direction from the roots. Does it ”prove” the ground-layered roots are feeding ALL THE WAY to the trunk itself? …... NO. Not yet. There is that nagging question whether or not the ground-layered roots are ONLY feeding the new folliage … but not beyond it. However, the bit between the new growth and the trunk is supple so I CAN conclude that it is not dead. Naturally, that is no proof that the new folliage is not being fed both from the ground-layered roots AND the original sapling roots planted on the left side of the plant. That of course, is why I want to put off removing the folliage untill I can see beyond a shadow of doubt that the entrance and exit points are truely ”fused”. Then I'll take the chance and sever the folliage.

I would bet that nutrients and water are still flowing through those original pathways to the growing foliage. The only way to prove the flow has reversed would be to sever that connection and see if the growth continues.

This I cannot agree with because the Ground-Layered roots have no place to direct their strenght other than in the reverse direction. There is no growth in the other direction. I chopped if off completely so the ground layered roots have only one direction to take.

It is an interesting concept, though, as if it does work it would enable one to effectively graft two roots onto a tree with one seedling.
Chris

Exactly. That is what I'm trying to find out. So far, so good.

 

[Random Usr]

Nebari: Do not apologize or think that your English is anything less than very good. There are 'native' speakers on this forum whose English is inferior to yours.

That was extremely kind of you to say! Thank you very much.

 

[coh]

Sorry, but you're still making a big assumption. How do you know that those roots are active/growing anymore...they could be dying under the soil and not feeding anything!

Long term results will tell the tale, but I'm not convinced. I might do some tests of this next year, though. In any event, please keep us posted.

 

[Random Usr]

....... How do you know that those roots are active/growing anymore...they could be dying under the soil and not feeding anything!

If this were true, the growth between the ground-layered roots and the first foliage would be dried out or mushy. It is supple.

Long term results will tell the tale, but I'm not convinced. I might do some tests of this next year, though. In any event, please keep us posted.

Good idea! Try a variation of my method and we'll compare notes.

 

[ColinFraser]

My understanding of plant anatomy is that phloem can transport sugars and other nutrients in any direction, from "sources" (storage or production) to "sinks" (places low in those resources). However, I believe that the water conducting xylem is more of a one-way street, and this will likely hinder the long term success of such an endeavor.

There's a reason cuttings tend to fail when you plant them upside down (and the occasional exceptions are easily explained by contortions of the new growth).

 

[coh]

So if that is true...the new growth could be feeding the new roots (thus keeping that section of stem supple/alive), but there might be no corresponding flow upward from the roots into that foliage. It might all be coming through from the original roots.

I guess we'll see what happens.

 

[0soyoung]

My understanding of plant anatomy is that phloem can transport sugars and other nutrients in any direction, from "sources" (storage or production) to "sinks" (places low in those resources). However, I believe that the water conducting xylem is more of a one-way street, and this will likely hinder the long term success of such an endeavor.

There's a reason cuttings tend to fail when you plant them upside down (and the occasional exceptions are easily explained by contortions of the new growth).

Nope, the xylem is just a bunch of empty tubes and has no directionality either. The directionality (i.e., up versus down) arises from Polar Auxin Transport (PAT) from cambium cell to cambium cell. Biologically active auxin is transported across the cell walls by PIN proteins. These proteins are strongly locked in position and transport auxin in only one direction. So auxin enters only from the 'top' of the cell and exits only from the 'bottom'.

Auxin is also transported with photosynthate in the ploem and therfore can be pushed 'upward' (by the pressure in the phloem generated by the foliage) before being unloaded and put into the PAT stream. This is what keeps the cambium at the bottom of an air layer girdle alive, for example.

 

[ColinFraser]

Nope, the xylem is just a bunch of empty tubes and has no directionality either. The directionality (i.e., up versus down) arises from Polar Auxin Transport (PAT) from cambium cell to cambium cell. Biologically active auxin is transported across the cell walls by PIN proteins. These proteins are strongly locked in position and transport auxin in only one direction. So auxin enters only from the 'top' of the cell and exits only from the 'bottom'.

Auxin is also transported with photosynthate in the ploem and therfore can be pushed 'upward' (by the pressure in the phloem generated by the foliage) before being unloaded and put into the PAT stream. This is what keeps the cambium at the bottom of an air layer girdle alive, for example.

I always appreciate your detailed responses. In your estimation, where does this leave the original question?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I've made no mention of any wish to ”communicate age”. My project is CLEARLY one of THREAD-GRAFTING, GROUND-LAYERING, and the possibility of REVERSE FLOW from the roots. I believe I have suceeded on all points.

In that case, congratulations. Aesthetically, I wouldn't want it, but good for you.

 

[aframe]

I'd like to see the 'ground layered' side one season after the foliage is removed. Interesting experiment.

 

[0soyoung]

In your estimation, where does this leave the original question?

There are many plants that sucker sucker excessively. If one chops out the chunk of these right around the ground level, turns it upside down and plants it, often roots will emerge from what was shoots and, of course, shoots from the roots. It can and does happen, in particular circumstances.

But Nebari's experiment has yet to provide a clear demonstration that he's successfully reversed the orientation of the PIN proteins. I think @aframe has it right

I'd like to see the 'ground layered' side one season after the foliage is removed. Interesting experiment.

During dormancy, the phloem pressure should abate.

I bet that Nebari's ground layered shoot/root side will die.

Regardless, this is fun stuff, even though it is not so bonsai.