Artisans Cup selections

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

One of Bill's sentences......The successful Artisan Cup exhibition was organized and tightly controlled by Chelsea Neil..... speaks volumes. #hilarious

 

[reddog]

One of Bill's sentences......The successful Artisan Cup exhibition was organized and tightly controlled by Chelsea Neil..... speaks volumes. #hilarious

I guess I'm a little dense. You say it "..speaks volumes", but if I put up $400k+ I would want complete control. can you expand on your message above?

 

[barrosinc]

I guess I'm a little dense. You say it "..speaks volumes", but if I put up $400k+ I would want complete control. can you expand on your message above?

I think she means something like:

It is hard to be unbiassed if you are looking at your trees.
It looks like a really good show... I don't really think it is should be frown upon.

If the idea is to stick with the american bonsai thing... then it is a wierd call to take it to Australia... but then again, nobody said there can't be a US artisans cup and an OZ artisans cup.

 

[coh]

My interpretation is that they (Ryan and Chelsea) wanted complete control of everything (and that meshes with some things I heard before the show), and the only way to get that level of control was to basically fund it themselves. Even if that meant mortgaging the house.

So be it...looks like they were successful in putting on a more "artistic" show. Now it'll be interesting to see how the community reacts and moves forward.

 

[Adair M]

It is interesting that such a hooplah is being made over the Artisan's Cup. Bill Valavanis has been organizing and putting on National shows for a decade now. With little or no controversy. Bill, however, is not trying to redefine what bonsai is, or how bonsai should be displayed.

I do like the fact bonsai was displayed in an Art museum. I think that's entirely appropriate. I'm not so sure about the lighting. I do think there was too much emphasis on the collected junipers. Especially since some of those trees have only been in bonsai pots for a few years. Bill Valavanis has some maples he's grown in pots for 50 years. I kinda feel that those trees are more deserving of the title "bonsai" than the freshly styled yamadori monsters that dominated the Artisan's Cup. Not that they weren't fabulous trees, mind you.

It will be interesting to see what the next one is like.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

John, I would recommend reading the "california juniper ready for show" from eric Schrader that derailed on the issue.
So we can keep this thread on track.

Going back to lighting... I've gotta say, that I am going to try to do a display like that at my house XD.

Thanks, I read it. But I think that the thread was about the show, not the lighting. Not trying to derail the thread, just offering my opinion on the outcome. There are things that I liked about the pictures that I have seen, and yes, the lighting is very well done, I wish I could have seen it. I don't see where my comment was off topic, there were other comments that critized things. I think that if you place a tree in a show to win a prize, you should be the artist that created it, not maintained it. I am not talking about having to go out and dig up a tree or planting a seed and waiting fifty years for it to grow, choosing unstyled raw material is OK, same as an artist buys paint and canvas. Just my opinion, I know it is not a popular one, but mine none the less.

John

 

[Mellow Mullet]

John, that would mean, in the case of a yamadori, only those who ho out and collect trees themselves would be elegible.

And the winner of First Place, Randy Knight, is a collector!

Let's think about this for a moment...

Horse racing: the horse has to be trained and ridden by the owner?

Car shows: the car has to be built from scratch by the owner?

Dog shows: the dog has to be trained and groomed by the owner?

Doesn't happen. At least, not in to top levels of these contests.)

All reasonable arguments, I guess, but more of an "apples to pineapples" camparison.

Horse racing is not equal to an art contest. Rich people buy horses, pay people to train them and jockeys to ride them, it is the stock car racing of the animal world.

The car shows that I have seen involve classic cars that have been taken from junkers to show pieces (some from really bad condition), the trophy is usually given for the skill that one has applied to the raw material. Again, it is not really an art form.

Dog shows? I don't know I never really considered prancing a well groomed dog around, making it perform tricks an art form either. Who knows, maybe in some circles it is.

What I am talking about is an artist taking someone else's work or contribution and calling it their own. None of the trees that I saw mentioned that it was styled, work on, or maintained by anyone other than the person who submitted it. Shouldn't all who worked on it get to bask in the glory of being in the winner's circle. At least in horse racing the jockey gets some recognition. At the end of movies, everyone gets mentioned, right down to the guy who brought the director lemonade.

Just my opinion.

John

 

[Cadillactaste]

Did I get surprised when Ryan and Mike had to make the deciding vote for the winner when it was a tie.... and they chose a close partner? Nope. The guy who specializes in selling the most expensive yamadori in the US won a competition being put on by his partners in his back yard. Why shouldn't he have something ridiculously huge and marvelous. Ryan did the work on it.... so his feelings on how the tree would rate compared to others is also not a surprise.

@Victrinia so a partner, and a tree Ryan has done work on...won!?! Am I reading this correctly???

 

[coh]

It's simple, if you want a show where all the work on the tree must be done by the owner, or the prizes go to whoever styled the tree...put up the money (or find investors) and stage your own show. Most bonsai shows just aren't set up that way, and really - why should they be? Most of the better trees have been owned and styled by more than one person, sometimes many have been involved along the way.

That said, I do like to know the history behind each tree...who owned it, who has worked on it. I know that kind of information is included in the National Exhibition albums.

 

[Cadillactaste]

So where/who fit the bill for the prize? And what did the winner take home?

This one who won...what's his relationship with Ryan? A partner I gather...friend/family does anyone know?

I don't know this Ryan and I don't meant to discredit him...nor do I mean to stir the pot. But, it sounds unethical to me...those participating were they aware of the "just" of how this was going down?

I'm glad ones think it looked great...but bottom line...Now that I know this about the exhibition...I feel it's a bit soiled for me. I can't imagine ones who took time to travel with their trees...find out that someone partial to their own styling give the winning vote to said tree. No matter what they put up front. In my book it's unethical...and I won't be looking at those photos of ones who placed their trees into such a contest. Because I would feel for all their hard work and time put into getting there was for naught. The ruling of the winner should have been delayed until someone who wasn't partial to said ones that were tied to the tree they worked on.

I doubt a show judge for dogs...is allowed to vote on a dog in the ring that they have ties to. Because it can benefit them in the long run...to some degree.

Maybe I'm wrong...but, that's the way I roll...the more I learn...the more questions I have. Which is extremely frustrating...because it only stirs the pot more. And my mind is going in so many different directions.

 

[MidMichBonsai]

Dan,

I agree with everything you wrote.

However, a few quibbles and rhetorical questions.

Being overly sensitive to criticism is part of every new effort- it's not a good thing. Not directed at you Dan, just in general.
FWIW, my concerns about shipping were not about the show personnel, procedures, handling or even cost--if ya want to play on that level, you have to pay to do it. Same goes for any kind of organized competition. My concerns in shipping a tree cross country are about simple circumstance that is beyond anyone's control. If the tree were in my truck and I was behind the wheel, I would have had no problem.

Also, can't help but notice along with the Western conifer-heavy line up, more than a few of the trees share collector and stylists. While that may be a simple function of a lot of spectacular material was gathered by a few of the best collectors and handled by knowledgeable stylists, there is a surface appearance that could be a little unsettling.

I have never bought the line that a tree has to be completely developed by one owner to be showable. It's an impossible request, especially with older collected material which has to thank mostly decades of simple exposure for its character and design.

Lastly, if this is about American bonsai, why is the next show in Australia? I may have heard wrong?

These are small questions in the bigger picture, though. Ryan's efforts were groundbreaking and have undoubtedly re-wired what a bonsai show in North America is and can be.

Thanks for your thoughts and "I hear ya!"

It does seem that the next Cup will be in Australia as stated on the Artisan Cup website http://www.theartisanscup.com/the-movement which gives me reason to question the "American Bonsai promotion" as well...hmmm. I truly the hope the original mission does not get lost in the hype and politics.

 

[barrosinc]

I believe he wasn't judging the competition but the tie breaker. Still, the money didn't go to his pockets.

All this I have read here...take it fwiw.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I believe he wasn't judging the competition but the tie breaker. Still, the money didn't go to his pockets.

All this I have read here...take it fwiw.

But, I guess I don't understand the "partner" part. Having ran a business years back with a partner...(which we now own outright. I guess I'm having trouble with that part.)

Who is this partner...friend/relative? Do we know? Partner how? That sort of thing...had my gerbil running far to fast on his wheel. How much money was the prize? More or less than what Ryan took out on his home? It's the business part of my gerbil that can't stop spinning. Sorry...

If someone your partners with...friend/relative again I don't know. Is one of the two running neck and neck. Then, my brain says...we find new a person or persons...who had no factoring tie to either tree being judged in the tie breaker.

DARN IT! I wish I could just block a thread...because my dang gone gerbil is exhausted and I don't really want to go down this path.

 

[Waldo Street Pottery]

Though politics are alive & well in bonsai, when you were there, in the show, it all disappeared. It's funny that those complaining about the lighting were not there. It's funny that all the folks that have a problem with the winner and who owns or styled it might have a pre-conceived notion about the event organizers . The show was the show, and it was phenomenal. I had dinner with one of the judges on Sunday who said, "The winner was the best tree in the show, no matter who collected it, who owns it, or who styled it". I took that as a fair statement because I don't care about the politics of the event, or in bonsai in general. I do not own or grow conifers, they just don't move me like deciduous trees. That said, I felt the best maple or beech in the show shouldn't have won in comparison to what did win, despite their time "in training" or "in a pot". Life is short, enjoy the things you are passionate about. Leave the politics to the elephants and donkeys.

 

[Djtommy]

Well, if I go to a show its to see good trees.
Whether those are touched by 1 person or 2 or 3 I don't really care, it's nice to know though who styled it.
It's a tree show. Best one is voted "best tree on show" it doesn't show best styling by owner..

You really prefer to see a show with some half assed trees looking like prebonsai but hey,grown from seed??

Don't forget Ryan is one of the best bonsaimaster in us. It's not so strange that trees styled by him are some of th e best. Those trees where high quality yamadori to start with.

If you want to see a show with good trees styled by owner I think you should visit the gardens of people like Ryan,Bill,etc

 

[Cadillactaste]

Not saying that...I'm saying it's odd...that they didn't table the tie breaker to have someone who wasn't partial to either tree cast the deciding factor. (That's all I'm saying)

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Cadillactaste...... yes.... you read correctly. Randy supplies much of the material that gets worked on by Ryan - so yes they are closely connected.... and to be probably 1/3 of the trees in the show were styled by Ryan anyway. So the probability that his work would win was over the top. That he and Mike were the deciding vote in a tie..... that's the sticky wicket.

I'm not going to comment further about my amusement over Chelsea..... she is a lawyer you know.... I'd rather not be sued.

I do want to make sure people know that whatever misgivings I might have had about the show....it was over the top beautiful.... and I loved it.

That's all I have to say about that..... (channeling my inner Forrest Gump.)

V

 

[Chicago_Willows]

But, I guess I don't understand the "partner" part.

Think of it as a $400k club show. As long as they aren't a 501c non-for-profit organization I see no problem with them overseeing tree selection, lighting, venue, judging, trophies, back-slapping, glad-handing and general profiting.

General question about different bonsai orgs; are any of them non-for-profits or are they mostly private, for-profit entities?

 

[Cadillactaste]

Cadillactaste...... yes.... you read correctly. Randy supplies much of the material that gets worked on by Ryan - so yes they are closely connected.... and to be probably 1/3 of the trees in the show were styled by Ryan anyway. So the probability that his work would win was over the top. That he and Mike were the deciding vote in a tie..... that's the sticky wicket.

Agreed...it's the part that really stuck out in your post to me. Is it ethical to vote for something one has done or has their hands on? Would one have a slight partial sway...?

By no means...am I in any classification as these people are with styling. But...even the raw material I've worked has a bit of sentimental ties to my heart. How can one say a tree they worked doesn't? Not saying the tree couldn't have won by another tie braking judge. But, that it would have stood solid with no one questioning.

I think it's fine he had trees he worked on there...but, he shouldn't have been the leading tie breaker on a tree his hands were on. Because don't we all have a tie to the ones we have worked on...to some degree.

 

[MidMichBonsai]

1. Ryan stated from the very beginning that he and Michael would cast the vote in the case of a tie.
2. Correct me if I'm wrong but all 3 top trees were styled by Ryan so the final vote cast by him as the tie-breaker was between a tree that he styled and a tree that he styled...makes sense that a tree that he styled won!
3. Randy Knight (winner) collects many trees for Ryan. Ryan styles many for Randy but the trees (other than the tie vote) were judged by unconnected parties. Acquaintances in bonsai for sure but when you get to the upper echelons of any field you find that the pool is quite small.
4. As stated earlier, most would place Ryan in the top 5 bonsai artists in the US so why is it any surprise that those trees voted best were some of the trees he had worked on. The show was in his backyard (and as I stated earlier, those in closer proximity are more likely to submit entries because of cost being lower to get trees there and travel there)?

If stellar trees, that deserved to win did just that, perhaps we can let go of the judgmental suspicions. It is art and that will always be subjective.