Bonsai Without Chemicals?

[JoeR]

@jkl wrote a great bit on Cleanliness once....

A great read....a must practice.
But where is it?

I'm going to use steel pipes and screen for benches. Bugs don't like crawling hot black steel.
Wet wood on the other hand......
Well....as poplar lol as it is....I think it is inviting worse pests.

I know I am a bit isolated up where I am now....that helps.....great air flow.

I haven't used chemicals much besides "safe" mite spray.

Ritual dosing can't last forever IMO.

My boss told me something about soy and a weed. They GMO"d the soy so the weed wouldn't something and the weed modified itself to beat it....

Nature will always win.

Healthy trees.....keep healthy trees.

How bout a place for healthy specimens...
And a isolated place for new collects...or weak stuff.

Sorce

I know what you are talking about. Monsanto modified crops, genetically resistant to their brand herbicide... Until some weeds mutated and are now resistant to the herbicide as well.

Nature/man!

 

[wireme]

While attending the Winter Silhouette Show, I had the chance to talk to Mrs. Valavanis who tossed some really interesting tips at me during our short chat. One of the things she mentioned that I found shocking is that their garden is maintained without any chemicals. At least as far as preventatives for fungi and diseases. She said that if a tree is ill, it is isolated to let nature take its course.


I found this surprising to say the least, as their collection is very admirable and definently one of the best collections in the country.


It made me question how this is done. I know it can be done, obviously the Japanese and Chinese managed just fine for hundreds of years so why cant I do the same?


She mentioned that airflow is a major key.


Im curious how many of you do, or do not, use chemical treatments?

And If you do use any, care to explain which ones and why please?

If you dont use chemical treatments like copper fungicides, any tips for a chemical free garden?



Thanks for any shared knowledge!


Oh the winter boredom!

For alternative possibilities to chemical control you could try a Google search for Systemic Aquired Resistance, (SAR) and for Induced Sytemic Resistance (ISR).
Interesting, a lot can be learned about what plants defence mechanisms actually are that way. Also you can then think about feeding your trees aspirin, shrimp exoskeletons and all kinds of other crazy things.

Lots of flowering plants of wide variety in your landscape, they attract beneficial predatory insects, and they're pretty, according to some plant lunatics some flowering plants can even induce a SAR response in woody plants via they chemicals enmited in the scent.

Try a Google search of foliar endophytes, imagine ways to keep them happy through the odd foliar feeding or whatever...that's good fun to beat off winter boredom. Host defence. That is why I hope I don't have to start spraying preemptive fungicides, I think it weakens natural defences. I will if I have to if problems arise, maybe I've just been lucky so far.

A pretty commonly cited estimate about the numbers of fungal spores out there is 10000 fungal spores/hr landing on a single leaf. There may be a few less up on Sorces balcony but they get up and around up there too, up in the atmosphere in high enough numbers to even affect rainfall so they say, with moisture precipitating around the spores. So, it's fine to move a sick plant over to the corner of your yard but really, it will inevitably be exposed to the same pathogen eventually. Obviously plants are not defenceless so what exactly are those defences and how do we maintain them?
Anyway just tossing out a couple different ideas that don't seem to come up here. Try getting through this, are you bored enough?
http://joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp?JournalID=1&ArticleID=2930&Type=2

Fwiw, location, region, micro-climate all play a role. I had practiced bonsai in the Northeast for a decade without ever having an issue with juniper blight, cedar-apple rust, or spider mites. I moved to GA 6 years ago and haven't had a growing season since where both mites, rusts and blights haven't been an issue. Same collection, different region...different pests. Another fwiw... if I let nature take it's course when spider mites rear their ugly heads every spring on my junipers....I wouldn't have any junipers come the fall.

Man, I have been so lucky not having problems so far with those things, I have pretty dry air here maybe that's a big help, I don't even know if we have spider mites on junipers outdoors here, too cold of winters maybe.

 

[JoeR]

For alternative possibilities to chemical control you could try a Google search for Systemic Aquired Resistance, (SAR) and for Induced Sytemic Resistance (ISR).
Interesting, a lot can be learned about what plants defence mechanisms actually are that way. Also you can then think about feeding your trees aspirin, shrimp exoskeletons and all kinds of other crazy things.

Lots of flowering plants of wide variety in your landscape, they attract beneficial predatory insects, and they're pretty, according to some plant lunatics some flowering plants can even induce a SAR response in woody plants via they chemicals enmited in the scent.

Try a Google search of foliar endophytes, imagine ways to keep them happy through the odd foliar feeding or whatever...that's good fun to beat off winter boredom. Host defence. That is why I hope I don't have to start spraying preemptive fungicides, I think it weakens natural defences. I will if I have to if problems arise, maybe I've just been lucky so far.

A pretty commonly cited estimate about the numbers of fungal spores out there is 10000 fungal spores/hr landing on a single leaf. There may be a few less up on Sorces balcony but they get up and around up there too, up in the atmosphere in high enough numbers to even affect rainfall so they say, with moisture precipitating around the spores. So, it's fine to move a sick plant over to the corner of your yard but really, it will inevitably be exposed to the same pathogen eventually. Obviously plants are not defenceless so what exactly are those defences and how do we maintain them?
Anyway just tossing out a couple different ideas that don't seem to come up here. Try getting through this, are you bored enough?
http://joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp?JournalID=1&ArticleID=2930&Type=2


Man, I have been so lucky not having problems so far with those things, I have pretty dry air here maybe that's a big help, I don't even know if we have spider mites on junipers outdoors here, too cold of winters maybe.

I found the part about ISR and SAR to be very interesting, I cannot believe I didnt know anything about how plants handle disease and infestation. Maybe we can find a way to give our trees 'flu shots' as humans do; Something that triggers SAR against common diseases (in your specific area) like the flowers. Whats that saying? The more you learn, the more you know there is to learn?


Reminds me of how some people introduce thousands of predatory ladybugs into their garden. But what unknown effects might there be? I could also see in the future using foliar endophytes like we use mycorrhizae in our soils now.


Maybe using systemic pesticides is kind of like humans who use too much hand sanitizer.


I have not fallen into the pit of extreme desperation quite yet, but when I do I promise all 12 pages will be read/skimmed!


I know that in Montana there are significantly less pests and such there because it is soooo dry, not to mention the extreme cold/heat.

 

[sorce]

I have not fallen into the pit of extreme desperation quite

It may be too late then!

Sorce

 

[jk_lewis]

@jkl wrote a great bit on Cleanliness once....

But where is it?

Next to Godliness, of course.

 

[jk_lewis]

Seriously, and simply, though . . . keep bonsai tables and worktables clear of spilled or washed-out soil, old leaves; moss, mold on the wood, etc. Keep weeds from your pots. Separate trees so canopies don't touch and they have proper ventilation. Keep tools clean and sterilized -- and SHARP. Empty pots should be thoroughly washed, then allowed to sit out in the sun (for those that ever see it!) for a couple of weeks.

 

[GrimLore]

Seriously, and simply, though . . . keep bonsai tables and worktables clear of spilled or washed-out soil, old leaves; moss, mold on the wood, etc. Keep weeds from your pots. Separate trees so canopies don't touch and they have proper ventilation. Keep tools clean and sterilized -- and SHARP. Empty pots should be thoroughly washed, then allowed to sit out in the sun (for those that ever see it!) for a couple of weeks.

100% solid advice! I might add using pine horse bedding for mulch as it is processed and does not rot like natural mulch in Winter. Also - If you do not have an area away from your plants to quarantine all new purchases make one!

Grimmy

 

[JoeR]

Seriously, and simply, though . . . keep bonsai tables and worktables clear of spilled or washed-out soil, old leaves; moss, mold on the wood, etc. Keep weeds from your pots. Separate trees so canopies don't touch and they have proper ventilation. Keep tools clean and sterilized -- and SHARP. Empty pots should be thoroughly washed, then allowed to sit out in the sun (for those that ever see it!) for a couple of weeks.

Off topic but- how do you keep your tools sharp? What do you use, if you dont mind telling.


Why let them sit in the sun?

 

[JoeR]

100% solid advice! I might add using pine horse bedding for mulch as it is processed and does not rot like natural mulch in Winter. Also - If you do not have an area away from your plants to quarantine all new purchases make one!

Grimmy

I dont currently, but how far away is an ideal distance?

 

[GrimLore]

I dont currently, but how far away is an ideal distance?

I keep my new plants, even landscape and flowers on the rear deck so they are only 10 to 25 foot away from other plants for an average of about two weeks. In that area the fence keeps the wind at a minimum which is "my" biggest requirement. At our much larger place I had a few benches about 60 feet way from anything else as I did not have a space restriction. I did notice here though I see and tend to look them over a LOT more as they are near the patio door. Makes it easier to spot things like mites, aphids, and other things. Also easier to treat being close.

Grimmy

 

[GrimLore]

Why let them sit in the sun?

Google Solar Bleaching I use Clorox Spray Clean-up most times but also dry them in the sun. My Wife wants a shelf next to the back door when we redo the kitchen as I tend to stack them next to the door waiting for proper weather

Grimmy

 

[GrimLore]

Off topic but- how do you keep your tools sharp? What do you use, if you dont mind telling.

There is a thread in this section that covers extensive professional instructions BUT I find running one of these Grey Medium grits freehand around 25 degrees on the cutting edge(s) 10 times lightly followed by another 10 times with the White Fine grit works great. My carbons and Stainless, cheap and expensive are so sharp and smooth you cannot run your finger tip across them without damage.

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/-Replacement-Ceramic-Rod-for-the-Lansky-Turn-Box-P190.aspx

Grimmy

 

[JoeR]

There is a thread in this section that covers extensive professional instructions BUT I find running one of these Grey Medium grits freehand around 25 degrees on the cutting edge(s) 10 times lightly followed by another 10 times with the White Fine grit works great. My carbons and Stainless, cheap and expensive are so sharp and smooth you cannot run your finger tip across them without damage.

http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/-Replacement-Ceramic-Rod-for-the-Lansky-Turn-Box-P190.aspx

Grimmy

Thanks for telling me, I thought about using japanese water stones per the article on evergreengardenworks.com but I realllyyy dont know what I am doing. I just want something inexpensive and easy to use to make my tools sharp. I plan on purchasing a grafting knife too so I need something to sharpen it as well.

 

[GrimLore]

I plan on purchasing a grafting knife too so I need something to sharpen it as well.

Most all of your tools will be very sharp upon receipt. Those two sticks will remove a burr left by manufacturing if need be but honest it is rare. As @jkl pointed out cleaning them well is most times needed - it takes away not only bacteria and eggs but also sap and other unwanted "things" that gum up a sharp tool. After a good cleaning the sticks will actually clean them further. Use them gently - no need to do otherwise unless you are doing more then the tool is meant to be used for. Proper use will yield years of great results without a heavy $$$$ investment just a good maintenance regiment.

You also inquired about non chemical procedures. When he stated "clean" a 1 quart DG sprayer filled with a 1 to 4 ratio of vinegar and water is uber antibacterial and a great solution to clean benches and pots if you prefer not to use bleach products.

Grimmy

 

[JoeR]

Most all of your tools will be very sharp upon receipt. Those two sticks will remove a burr left by manufacturing if need be but honest it is rare. As @jkl pointed out cleaning them well is most times needed - it takes away not only bacteria and eggs but also sap and other unwanted "things" that gum up a sharp tool. After a good cleaning the sticks will actually clean them further. Use them gently - no need to do otherwise unless you are doing more then the tool is meant to be used for. Proper use will yield years of great results without a heavy $$$$ investment just a good maintenance regiment.

You also inquired about non chemical procedures. When he stated "clean" a 1 quart DG sprayer filled with a 1 to 4 ratio of vinegar and water is uber antibacterial and a great solution to clean benches and pots if you prefer not to use bleach products.

Grimmy

Thanks for the info as always

I know the grafting knife will be sharo when I buy it but I plan on using it quite often and I need it sharp as possible.


Currently I use rubbing alcohol to sanitize my tools because its cheap and effective!


The million dollar question is how on Earth do you sharpen a concave cutter?!

 

[GrimLore]

The million dollar question is how on Earth do you sharpen a concave cutter?!

That is the reason I use the small rods - makes it easy, at least seems to be for me.

Grimmy

 

[GrimLore]

I know the grafting knife will be sharo when I buy it but I plan on using it quite often and I need it sharp as possible.

Consider what this guy shows you and the "types" of knife he uses in the Orchard - pretty simple and inexpensive although VERY sharp -

Grimmy

 

[Anthony]

Sharpen a concave cutter [ which is meant for cutting twigs - think matchstick size or you break them ] ask for
which issue of Bonsai Today had the article.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[DougB]

AH? Is there a difference between pre-bonsai and showable-bonsai?

Just asking.

Merry Christmas

 

[aml1014]

AH? Is there a difference between pre-bonsai and showable-bonsai?

Just asking.

Merry Christmas

Pre bonsai is suitable material to train for bonsai, show able trees are far more refined.