Soil mix

[Andrew Robson]

We did. We also covered it in the previous 14 page soil war. And the one before that. And the one before that...

The beat goes on. The latest wunderkind comes along and says "you can't grow good trees in turface" (or haydite or whatever other non-Boon mix ingredient is being discussed), meanwhile people continue to grow good trees in those ingredients. But Michael Hagedorn said it can't be done, so those trees must not exist I guess. It's kind of like how you can't grow junipers indoors...except for the fact that Jack Wikle does it.

The particle size of turface is on the small side, and I suspect that if it were a bit larger it would be one of the best soil components out there. You can certainly compensate for that, as evidenced by those who have been using it successfully for decades...longer than Michael Hagedorn has been doing bonsai.

Why throw the blame just onto Michael? Perhaps it's because he's the only full time bonsai professional that shares what he's doing freely on his website. Boon posts a lot on Facebook, too!

You really should include Boon, Matt Reel, Peter Tea, Ryan Neil, Bjorn, and others into the mix too. Just because they don't have blogs stating their soil mixes, doesn't mean that Micahel is a lone wolf. He just happens to be the one with a blog sharing this stuff.

Look, use whatever soil you want, I really don't care. I'm going to stick with what I know to be the most beneficial for my goals of having really great bonsai.

With that, I am done posting on this soil war.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I ran out of room, 1000 word limit, so here are some other stops.

Some Ag Feed Stores, Rural King, Farm & Fleet, TSS, Saddle & Feed shops, will carry Dry Stall pumice, and or Grower or Layer grade of Crushed Granite Grit. (poultry grit). The pumice availability is hit or miss, hence Rita's interest in buying a truck load. For crushed granite, in Wisconsin I can get the reddish gray purple brown crushed granite. If I buy granite grit south of the IL-WI border, it tends to be stark white with black flecks. I prefer the red-brown-gray-purple grit, which I believe is sourced out of Minnesota. (Farm and Fleet is in Sturdevant, WI about 30 minutes north) They have multiple stores, some in IL.

Home Depot, to pick up Hydro Stone Soil Aerator - a good recycled glass substitute for lava rock or pumice. 15 minutes away. If your local HD don't carry the fine grade, "Soil Aerator" order it on line, for pick up at local HD store, no shipping charges that way, usually 3 days or less wait.

Hydro-Your Own, hydroponics supply shop - 20 minutes away in Kenosha. Here I can get Perlite, or Sponge Rock also, I call ahead they can order in the chunky coarse grade. Also various inert media, one is similar to Turface, but larger particles, I forget the name. Always something interesting to check out, either media, or fertilizer, or lamps for my light garden. Any good Hydroponics shop will do, especially if they will order in things at your request. (they just recently closed their retail, now wholesale only)

Good hydro shop in Chicago area are the Brew & Grow Shops, several retail locations. The staff at the 3625 N. Kedzie Ave, Chicago, IL 60618 location is particularly helpful, I've been dealing with some of them for over 20 years. It is on Kedsie Ave, just north of Addison. About 3 miles west of Cubs Ball Park, Wrigley Field. They have locations in Roselle, Bollingbrook and Crystal Lake too. http://www.brewandgrow.com/retail-locations

 

[sorce]

this helps

Yes....beyond help. Thanks a truckload of pumice.....!

Speaking of......I wouldn't be against going in on some pumice if need be.....that's what I really really want to try.

Did I ever tell you about the feller named Oli and Leo I worked with.....
Saying either name repeatedly calls them both....like a battle call! Pretty cool!
And very stupid!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

throw the blame

There isn't a word in @coh 's post that puts, places, throws, or otherwise implies any blame on Michael.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Damn it Andrew!

Why do you make it so easy to pick on you!

I hate this.

But note Smoke's shitty grammar too!
Lol.

Sorce

 

[rockm]

I have questioned soil choice, and I found the answers I'm looking for on the best soil for my goals with bonsai. I hope everyone else can do the same.

Apparently, when others who don't necessarily agree with everything you say and try to do something that WE consider best, we are told that we shouldn't...or advised that we're idiots who don't understand gravity...or about the inexorable, absolute, superiority of your choices. Pissing on my foot and calling it kanuma doesn't make it a good soil mix

 

[Stan Kengai]

. . . use whatever soil you want, I really don't care. . .

This is obviously not true because you keep arguing with the "ignorants" on this site. The problem is that your argument basically boils down to this: "Man already know everything there is to know about bonsai soil, so there's no use trying to find alternative or better ingredients". If you're happy with and can afford your bonsai soil, then good for you. Why not leave those who are not happy with or cannot afford premium bonsai soil alone to do as they please? That is where innovation comes from. Sure, people will fail, they'll waste their time, and they'll not have the best trees. WHAT DO YOU CARE? Stop acting like the leader of the Soil Inquisition.

I'm glad that my profession sought better techniques and technology. Otherwise, surveyors might still be using a compass and steel chain, or theodolite and edm, or manual total stations. Here's to innovators, and to those who tried and failed.

 

[sorce]

I got nothing against that Hippie Lumberjack Michael H.!

Only one tree was posted in that blog post yes?
And it was someone else's?

We know cuz it's been documented, that Turface, DE, and kitty litter.........

There's about what, 18 kinds of Turface,
One or 2 are useful?
Not to mention the morons that buy something different, call it Turface, and continue to tarnish its name by not admitting they tried to cheat and bought something that was closer to their house cuz they were Fucking lazy!
I still feel like a dick for talking shit to OSO, and am glad he set me straight!
Worse, I believed that blogpost!

DE...or worse....oil dry products....
Hell, I've been accused playfully of working for NAPA cuz I advocate it so much! And even I have been calling it oil-dry, when it's floor-dry. 8822 tho. That's it.. There are around 18 different oil dry products I can get, have played with at least 8, and none of them are 8822.
But they get categorized as "oil dry"

Kitty litter...I hate cats, but I love them too, specially @Geo and @amcoffeegirl s.
But there is no less than 30 brands, and that just at a corner grocery store!
Thousands....I don't think US has a good one.....

Anyway......while Joe Schmoe Moron YouTube poster who doesn't know shit continues to poison Bonsai with lies and Idiocy.....

I'll keep arguing about trumpet physics and Vagflutes!

I still feel like this Thread should have music playing....I think it's the skull.

G.g.g.g.tsh. G.g.g.g.tsh.... house music all night long, house music all night long.

Hell with it.

Sorce

 

[Cotyledon]

Flute.

 

[sorce]

Hitler.

 

[Stickroot]

Why throw the blame just onto Michael? Perhaps it's because he's the only full time bonsai professional that shares what he's doing freely on his website. Boon posts a lot on Facebook, too!

You really should include Boon, Matt Reel, Peter Tea, Ryan Neil, Bjorn, and others into the mix too. Just because they don't have blogs stating their soil mixes, doesn't mean that Micahel is a lone wolf. He just happens to be the one with a blog sharing this stuff.

Look, use whatever soil you want, I really don't care. I'm going to stick with what I know to be the most beneficial for my goals of having really great bonsai.

With that, I am done posting on this soil war.

I think you can admit that the one of the big factors of having "really great bonsai" is having " disposable income"
Am I wrong?

 

[sorce]

If by disposable income you mean....

Time, and some effort.

By all means yes!
Or no....

Sorce

 

[Stickroot]

If by disposable income you mean....

Time, and some effort.

By all means yes!

Sorce

No, I mean buying great trees.
And having the "disposable income" too buy great trees.

 

[Smoke]

Look, use whatever soil you want, I really don't care. I'm going to stick with what I know to be the most beneficial for my goals of having really great bonsai.

This is the kind of thinking that tool makers like Masakuni pray for. Some fool that thinks buying a superior tool for gobs of money will somehow propel his collection of Home Depot junipers into a collection of Kokufu masterpieces.

How many years you gonna spend on praying at the alter of bonsai soil mix before you start posting some pictures of these really great bonsai that "you did"?

Now for the good part. There is not one thing in any soil recipe that could not be afforded to the plant in many ways. The "soil" is not why a tree grows well or poor. It has nothing to do why a plant or tree grows. In a container, which we as bonsai practitioners do, soil is needed for a number of reasons.
1. to provide anchorage for the plant in a pot,
2. to fill the void provided in the pot,
3. to hold the needed moisture for the roots,
4. and provide the medium in which to hold beneficial bacteria and the needed nutrients for life. ....Period! How this is accomplished is simple. The soil medium has to have ample particle size to provide the free exchange of air and allow water to flow thru and it needs to hold enough water as vapor for long enough time to get recharged with water, and it needs to have some cation exchange (CEC) to allow fertilizer to stay within the pot and not wash thru. That is it. No magic what so ever.

How this is done makes no difference to the plant. The plant is a semi inanimate object with no nervous system, no vocal chords to speak and frankly does not know if it is a juniper from Home depot or a 600 year old deadwood masterpiece from the mountains. There are asthetics involved with the soil medium placed in the void of the pot for anchorage of the tree. While perlite may just be the best soil medium for a potted plant known to man, it looks terrible in a pot, being stark white. Pumice also is light in color and not asthetically appealing on its own. Lava is good being quite dark, and porous though heavy. Akadama, being brown in color and sifted to larger sizes and being clay which is good for moisture retention is also a good component. It does break down and turn to mud, which I do not like. I don't care who you are and could frankly care less what your professional name is, I don't want anything turning into mud in my pot. I defy anyone to prove to me how turning into mud is beneficial to the root mass, possibly making anaerobic conditions which indeed cause root rot. Not water as wrongly stated by many, anaerobic conditions. For this reason alone I will be removing akadama from my show tree soil mix this year and providing sifted and graded bark in place of the clay component. A good bark particle could also add the beneficial water retention as well as upping the CEC to above average conditions while holding its shape for years and not degrading.

Plants and trees absolutely do not need soil to grow! Plants and trees get no action from the soil that will make them grow better except controlling the size and shape of the particles for increased or decreased air exchange. This is a scientific fact and proved countless times in many voyages to outer space with NASA. The closer a soil mix is to aeroponic or hydroponic conditions, the better the plant will grow.

Now, fashionable soil is for humans and bragging rights. It is for people to feel better about the plants knowing that they have spent lots of money to make something that poor people have no access to and therefore I am doing it right! .....Period.

Lots of reading here, much of it from Universities and Ag extensions

https://www.provenwinners.com/learn/dirt-dirt-potting-soil

https://extension.illinois.edu/containergardening/soil.cfm

http://aces.nmsu.edu/ces/yard/2002/121402.html

http://garden.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Can_Plants_Grow_Without_Soil

 

[fredman]

Now this is the kind of reaction expected from a Masterpiece here....each and every time.... Concise argument. Informative and evidentially stacked. Gold to those seeking to understand soil.
If it didn't have that unnecessary personal sting in it, I would've called it a perfect post....

 

[fredman]

I picked this up the other day. Immediately thought of Bnut forum...

 

[Potawatomi13]

Source: https://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/2012/05/15/repotting-a-beast/

Thank you so much for that link. Had never thought of charcoal or had forgotten and also about to throw out my big sifted pumice. Now will use both. Read whole repotting blog and was most informative. Love that tree!

 

[Starfox]

I think what you are seeing is just New Folk, looking for a simple soil mix, which fits into their watering / life style.

I know that is why I have read all 15 pages of this thread and others like it.
I certainly have more of an idea of what I am planning but then a lot will come down to what is available locally and if I am in a pinch what I can order online.
There is nothing to say that with experience such a mix wont change but for now I just want a good mix to last to the next repot.

 

[Djtommy]

So which kind of akadama is everybody talking about as there are some big differences within this. Some you can crush with your fingers, some of the hard baked stuff, yakiakadama is very hard. This stuff doesnt break down easily

 

[M. Frary]

Why throw the blame just onto Michael? Perhaps it's because he's the only full time bonsai professional that shares what he's doing freely on his website. Boon posts a lot on Facebook, too!

You really should include Boon, Matt Reel, Peter Tea, Ryan Neil, Bjorn, and others into the mix too. Just because they don't have blogs stating their soil mixes, doesn't mean that Micahel is a lone wolf. He just happens to be the one with a blog sharing this stuff.

Look, use whatever soil you want, I really don't care. I'm going to stick with what I know to be the most beneficial for my goals of having really great bonsai.

With that, I am done posting on this soil war.

I haven't read a Michael Hagedorn blog post since reading his post on turface. I saw a person that is supposed to be a "professional" bonsai person that couldn't get a tree to grow good for him in turface. So therefore to all of the rest of the world that can and do grow bonsai in something other than kakadama are wrong because he can't.
I don't do Facebook nor look at the blogs you mentioned. I don't need to. It's all JBP mostly anyway. Don't have one,never will. Can't stand the use of the terminology used in calling tree parts that are shoots instead of candles one thing.
Why can't a "professional" differentiate between the different stages of growth and call them by their proper names?
And getting back to akadama. Like Al said. Why put something in soil that breaks down into mud when we try so hard to get native soil out that is essentially the same thing?
Plant it in akadama and now you are back to trying to get it back out. Decidious trees wouldn't be bad because you can wash the crap off. Coniferous trees we aren't supposed to bare root. So now what. A half bare rooting. Which some claim Boon invented. Hogwash. He only invented how to market himself.
And then there are those that believe akadama is needed for fine root growth and ramification. More hogwash. I get just as fine roots and just as fine top growth as anything grown in kakadama.
It's what the Japanese use.
Because it is available and cheap. What if their island was made out of diatoms? Floor dry would be what they would use.

So which kind of akadama is everybody talking about as there are some big differences within this. Some you can crush with your fingers, some of the hard baked stuff, yakiakadama is very hard. This stuff doesnt break down easily

But it does break down. I'm talking about all kakadama. Eventually it too turns to mud.
And hearing that Al is going to phase it out for trees to show is a real eye opener too. There is a picture of him somewhere holding a bag of akadama and smiling. He is moving away from it because of its drawbacks.
And for the record. I listen to what he and Vance Wood have to say about bonsai before anyone else. These 2 men are the real masters in bonsai. Not just on this forum. They question. They experiment. They grow wicked trees.