Treeblers verses 'Taters...

[Adair M]

I don't even have one yet. I'm working on creating one. Then I'll decide whether I like them or not.
PS: Eventhough it doesn't exist yet. It has a name: Jabba the (Insert the species here)

Lol!!

Jabba the Olive:

 

[Cajunrider]

Lol!!

Jabba the Olive:

View attachment 237042

Sure looks like one, especially with the tail on the right of the picture. That's it. I have gotta get me a Jabba! My number one candidate is Jabba Jabuticaba! That may take a while. In the meantime I have Jabba the Oak, Jabba the Crepe Myrtle as readily available candidates.

 

[amatbrewer]

I would like to add my $0.02 and mention that people often confuse their personal taste/preference with what is right/wrong. e.g. "I'm not an admirer of potatoes with leaves. I like trees that actually look like trees..." Well, good for you, but so what?
As an example; I can't stand Shiner Bock beer. But that says more about me than it does about that particular beer and/or those who might like it (if there in fact are such people).

 

[Cajunrider]

I would like to add my $0.02 and mention that people often confuse their personal taste/preference with what is right/wrong. e.g. "I'm not an admirer of potatoes with leaves. I like trees that actually look like trees..." Well, good for you, but so what?
As an example; I can't stand Shiner Bock beer. But that says more about me than it does about that particular beer and/or those who might like it (if there in fact are such people).

I'm pretty sure most of us here know the difference. For me, if the trees are healthy then it's right. If not then it's wrong. As for the shape of the trees, to each our own for enjoyment. However, if one want their trees to be judged, there are standards to be met.

 

[Adair M]

I would like to add my $0.02 and mention that people often confuse their personal taste/preference with what is right/wrong. e.g. "I'm not an admirer of potatoes with leaves. I like trees that actually look like trees..." Well, good for you, but so what?
As an example; I can't stand Shiner Bock beer. But that says more about me than it does about that particular beer and/or those who might like it (if there in fact are such people).

<<SHOCK!!! HORROR!!!>>

<<thud>> (the sound of @markyscott passing out!)

 

[Cajunrider]

<<SHOCK!!! HORROR!!!>>

<<thud>> (the sound of @markyscott passing out!)

To the horror of attendees of Bonsai on the bayous of course!

 

[sikadelic]

I am only commenting on this thread because there is so much traffic on it and my point has nothing to do with taters or treeblers.

I will only speak for myself, but I stopped coming here for almost a year or so and have only recently started popping back in. In MY opinion, there is an absolute goldmine of knowledge on this site. I have recommended it to folks who have asked me about my "odd hobby", people who just ask me generic tree questions because I am "that tree guy at work", or just when I talk to others who seem like they may want to give bonsai a try. While this is certainly a goldmine, it has so many damn landlines around it that I stop becoming curious about the treasure inside it. I am a positive person. I have never met a stranger, I can make friends with a turnip, and I refuse to have a bad day. This site makes me want to punch myself in the face. Hey, call me crazy, but I never feel like being passive aggressive or criticizing people or being argumentative for no purpose other than my own pleasure. I have never muted anyone and I'm not asking for moderation. Too much moderation in life right now in MY opinion. But anyway, I digress. I am just frustrated with so much negativity and backbiting.

Nice trees folks.

 

[Adair M]

There are certain styles if trees that exist just to demonstrate exceptional skills. I suppose extreme Sumo is one. Another are the extreme pancake nebari that’s possible with maples. Another are the extreme exposed root styles done with azalea. I’m sure there are others. The thing is, bonsai is an art form. We’re just doing it with small trees. There’s no rule that says the trees have to be naturalistic or realistic. We’re not trying to copy nature. Inspired by nature, yes. Duplicating nature in miniature? No. Or at least: “not necessarily”. You can if you like. But there’s no reason to limit the art to duplication.

 

[Cajunrider]

There are certain styles if trees that exist just to demonstrate exceptional skills. I suppose extreme Sumo is one. Another are the extreme pancake nebari that’s possible with maples. Another are the extreme exposed root styles done with azalea. I’m sure there are others. The thing is, bonsai is an art form. We’re just doing it with small trees. There’s no rule that says the trees have to be naturalistic or realistic. We’re not trying to copy nature. Inspired by nature, yes. Duplicating nature in miniature? No. Or at least: “not necessarily”. You can if you like. But there’s no reason to limit the art to duplication.

Where I live, practically every old crepe myrtle has pancake nebari like this. The high water table tends to push the roots right to the surface. I'm hoping to get my crepe myrtle and one of my BC to look like that.

 

[coh]

There are certain styles if trees that exist just to demonstrate exceptional skills. I suppose extreme Sumo is one. Another are the extreme pancake nebari that’s possible with maples. Another are the extreme exposed root styles done with azalea. I’m sure there are others. The thing is, bonsai is an art form. We’re just doing it with small trees. There’s no rule that says the trees have to be naturalistic or realistic. We’re not trying to copy nature. Inspired by nature, yes. Duplicating nature in miniature? No. Or at least: “not necessarily”. You can if you like. But there’s no reason to limit the art to duplication.

I think most of us understand that you cannot duplicate a full sized mature tree from nature in a container, at least not in a container small enough to be moved by one person. But if one could...would it be any better or worse to do that, versus (essentially) copying previously made bonsai styles? I see so many bonsai that look like so many other bonsai...big base, lots of taper, left/right trunk movement, left/right branch (coming forward of course), back branch, dome shaped foliage mass, apex leaning toward viewer. Where is the art in that?

It's funny, I've been "doing" bonsai for about 8 years now. Shortly after I first started, I borrowed the book about Dan Robinson from our club (Gnarly Branches, Ancient Trees). I remember paging through the tree photos and thinking "these aren't bonsai, they look like someone just pulled trees out of the mountains and stuck them in pots, then never styled them." I was already indoctrinated as to what bonsai "should" look like, after only a year. I recently purchased the book and have been browsing through it and I have to say, I appreciate what Dan has done a lot more now.

Anyway, carry on!

PS Haven't seen @grouper52 in a while, if you're still lurking around on the forum - hope things are OK (or as OK as they can be under the circumstances).

 

[Adair M]

I think most of us understand that you cannot duplicate a full sized mature tree from nature in a container, at least not in a container small enough to be moved by one person. But if one could...would it be any better or worse to do that, versus (essentially) copying previously made bonsai styles? I see so many bonsai that look like so many other bonsai...big base, lots of taper, left/right trunk movement, left/right branch (coming forward of course), back branch, dome shaped foliage mass, apex leaning toward viewer. Where is the art in that?

It's funny, I've been "doing" bonsai for about 8 years now. Shortly after I first started, I borrowed the book about Dan Robinson from our club (Gnarly Branches, Ancient Trees). I remember paging through the tree photos and thinking "these aren't bonsai, they look like someone just pulled trees out of the mountains and stuck them in pots, then never styled them." I was already indoctrinated as to what bonsai "should" look like, after only a year. I recently purchased the book and have been browsing through it and I have to say, I appreciate what Dan has done a lot more now.

Anyway, carry on!

PS Haven't seen @grouper52 in a while, if you're still lurking around on the forum - hope things are OK (or as OK as they can be under the circumstances).

Bonsai is a mix of art and craft.

Now, let’s suppose someone goes up into the mountains and finds a fantastic yamadori tree. Digs it, brings it home. Gets it to live. Puts it in a pot. Tree doesn’t need much styling at all. A “natural bonsai”.

Is the guy who did this an artist?

 

[amatbrewer]

Bonsai is a mix of art and craft.

Now, let’s suppose someone goes up into the mountains and finds a fantastic yamadori tree. Digs it, brings it home. Gets it to live. Puts it in a pot. Tree doesn’t need much styling at all. A “natural bonsai”.

Is the guy who did this an artist?

If not than Suiseki would also not be an art form.

 

[flor1]

Bonsai is a mix of art and craft.

Now, let’s suppose someone goes up into the mountains and finds a fantastic yamadori tree. Digs it, brings it home. Gets it to live. Puts it in a pot. Tree doesn’t need much styling at all. A “natural bonsai”.

Is the guy who did this an artist?

Or the guy who buys a completed tree is a artist or not

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Or the guy who buys a completed tree is a artist or not

He may or may not be. How’s it look a year or two later?

 

[Adair M]

If not than Suiseki would also not be an art form.

But is it?

Or is it a craft?

Or what? The practitioner hasn’t done anything to create the stone. Sure, he had to go find it, and have the imagination to see it at whatever angle to make it look like it inspires or triggers something in the brain that makes you think, “oh... that looks like...”

And can such art be reproducible? If it is, then do it drop from being art to craft?

And who is the better writer? James Michener, who wrote many novels using history as inspiration? Or Margarette Mitchell who wrote just one?

Frankly, I don’t reallt care whether @coh thinks I’m an artist or not. I’m good at bonsai. I can create bonsai, I can keep them alive for long periods of time, I can refine them, improve them, move them from the developing stage to the refinement stage, show them, and teach others how to do what I do. I’m not a professional, I don’t try to earn money doing bonsai, I just enjoy messing with little trees. Oh sure, I teach a few classes, people pay me to work on their trees, but I certainly couldn’t live on my bonsai earnings! I think if I tried to do so, it wouldn’t be fun any more.

That’s the cool thing about bonsai, there’s so many aspects that you can pick and choose what parts of the entire bonsai spectrum of activities you like best. Oh, I know, some say they like to do it all! And that’s fine, but I bet they never truly master everything as well as the specialists. For instance, Mark Comstock has the JBP seedling cutting thing down pat! They’re the best I’ve ever seen! But, he doesn’t try to grow them all the way out. He sells them to others who will. And that’s ok.

@coh has posted he thinks I should “develop my own style” working on some new material. Why should I do that if I’m perfectly happy doing what I like to do? It’s not as if I never try new species! 6 years ago, I had never owned an olive. Five years ago, my friend Sam Adina had one for sale, and I bought it. Learned all there was to know about olives. Worked it, took it to the National Show in Rochester last fall. Was it out of my comfort zone when I started? You bet! I had fun learning something new. Now I have several olives.

But I also take great pleasure just maintaining good bonsai. I’m lucky that I have the resources to acquire some nice trees. I feel u have to duty to not just aquire them, but improve them over time. If I improve something that good, and make it better, does that make me an artist?

Frankly, I don’t care. (Or in the words of Margarette Mitchell, “Frankly, I don’t give a damn!”

 

[coh]

That’s the cool thing about bonsai, there’s so many aspects that you can pick and choose what parts of the entire bonsai spectrum of activities you like best. Oh, I know, some say they like to do it all! And that’s fine, but I bet they never truly master everything as well as the specialists.

So? If someone is happy being a "jack of all trades, master of none", that's all that matters.

@coh has posted he thinks I should “develop my own style” working on some new material. Why should I do that if I’m perfectly happy doing what I like to do? It’s not as if I never try new species! 6 years ago, I had never owned an olive. Five years ago, my friend Sam Adina had one for sale, and I bought it. Learned all there was to know about olives. Worked it, took it to the National Show in Rochester last fall. Was it out of my comfort zone when I started? You bet! I had fun learning something new. Now I have several olives.

Hey, I don't care how you do bonsai! But you're often on various threads telling others how they should be doing bonsai, or telling them how bad their trees are or that they're
not really doing bonsai. It's really no different than me telling you to break out of the box you've put yourself in. So do whatever makes you happy, just remember that person you are ripping on might be doing what makes them happy.

As for the line between art and craft, or whether a collected tree that doesn't require much work is "art", I'm not interested in going there. I'll let others battle that one out if they choose.

Have a good weekend!

 

[wireme]

Bonsai is a mix of art and craft.

Now, let’s suppose someone goes up into the mountains and finds a fantastic yamadori tree. Digs it, brings it home. Gets it to live. Puts it in a pot. Tree doesn’t need much styling at all. A “natural bonsai”.

Is the guy who did this an artist?

I have recently come up with an idea for a bonsai which I will call art, I think you’ll hate it, can’t wait to show you!
It is a very stupid idea, I’m feeling quite inspired, maybe I’ll start it tomorrow.

 

[wireme]

Ah, shit. I cannot start it tomorrow because as I was planning just now I realized that nothing will do but a custom @sorce pot for this. I’d like to just come out with the idea but no, doesn’t count until it’s real, we’ll have to wait a bit.

 

[Cajunrider]

In my travel of the world I've met thousands of artisans who by necessity create articles for sale. These artisans have zero training in any art and create the articles, from sculptures to paintings and bonsai as well, purely by feel and by personal experiences that are driven by what the customers want. The quality of most articles are mediocre but some I would put against the best of well known artists.

For me I make no distinction between art or craft. Anything created by inspiration can be art. If a person goes into the wild and see something that can be beautiful in a different setting. Then that person collects the thing and creates a setting to show it. While that person may not have any hand in the actual creation of the thing, what is done can still be considered art.

This doesn't mean I eschew formal training. Rather it makes me embrace it. Formal training sharpens our vision and help make our imagination become reality easier.

 

[sorce]

Ah, shit. I cannot start it tomorrow because as I was planning just now I realized that nothing will do but a custom @sorce pot for this. I’d like to just come out with the idea but no, doesn’t count until it’s real, we’ll have to wait a bit.

I have to replace my control arms, ball joints brakes, shocks and a valve cover gasket ...but I oughta get it done, so we can start tomorrow!

Interesting!

Sorce