AlainK
Imperial Masterpiece
Sounds good.
We don't have the same brands on the other side of the ocean, but that sounds good...
We don't have the same brands on the other side of the ocean, but that sounds good...
need help - maple chlorotic leaves, epsom salt concentration?
D
Deleted member 21616
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update:
all 4 trees were sprayed with the iron chelate (dosage recommended on packaging). All were given the same water (large amounts of rain...
)
2 kashima were left in "full sun" (see below) - these are back to normal looking good
1 kashima and 1 kiyohime were given "morning sun, afternoon shade" (see below) - they are progressing too, but not as fast
Note: since sunday, the days have been very cloudy, and this certainly dulls--but does not annul--the impact of the above differentiating factor
in short, i have not narrowed down the solution, but things are improving. Thank you all!
all 4 trees were sprayed with the iron chelate (dosage recommended on packaging). All were given the same water (large amounts of rain...
)2 kashima were left in "full sun" (see below) - these are back to normal looking good
1 kashima and 1 kiyohime were given "morning sun, afternoon shade" (see below) - they are progressing too, but not as fast
Note: since sunday, the days have been very cloudy, and this certainly dulls--but does not annul--the impact of the above differentiating factor
in short, i have not narrowed down the solution, but things are improving. Thank you all!
Leo in N E Illinois
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@derek7745 - good thing they are looking better.
In part I'm teasing, but all you big giant brains talking Epsom salts, iron, magnesium, manganese all forgot the one thing that all the iron supplements and magnesium have in common. SULFUR. Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate, iron fertilizer is based on ferric sulfate.
Sulfur is a macro nutrient. In the MSU fertilizer formulations if you start with a 12-1-12 the sulfur should be a 2. Sulfur is omitted from most formulations because of solubility problems. Any fertilizer that includes Calcium will not have any sulfur, because calcium sulfate will form, which is gypsum. Normally there is enough sulfur in the environment, acid rain, clay soils, etc, that sulfur deficiency is not common. Derek's problem might not be an actual sulfur deficiency. But a second benefit of sulfur in the soil or in the fertilizer is sulfur as it dissolves forms weak acids, sulfonates etc, that help with absorption of iron, manganese, magnesium and other metals needed to create the enzymes needed for metabolism.
Infrequently, but on occasion I have used Epsom salts, magnesium sulfate, at one teaspoon per gallon, or 5 ml by volume per 4 liters, as a low dose foliar spray or a soil drench. I have gone as high as one tablespoon per gallon, 15 ml per 4 liters, with no harmful effect on my trees or my orchids.
I now add elemental sulfur to my potting mix. One tablespoon by volume to a gallon of potting media. 15 ml per roughly 4 liter of potting media. I add it to the media after the final sifting, usually I dampen the media just before mixing in the sulfur. It takes a full year or more for all the sulfur to slowly dissolve into the soil moisture. Provides slow constant acidification of the soil. Enables metal ion uptake, such as iron.
Elemental Sulfur is sold at any full line garden center where they cater to old organic farmers. I have never paid more than $9 per pound. Cheap. It comes in 2 grades, as a soil acidifier, which is a grind like fine sand. This is the product I prefer. Takes one year to dissolve. If all you can find is the powdered sulfur used as a fungicide, the particles are very fine. It can be used as a substitute, but add a third as much and dose 3 times a year. Because it dissolves faster.
You could also add sulfur powder to your organic fertilizer, but you would need to figure out the dose.
Hope this helps
In part I'm teasing, but all you big giant brains talking Epsom salts, iron, magnesium, manganese all forgot the one thing that all the iron supplements and magnesium have in common. SULFUR. Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate, iron fertilizer is based on ferric sulfate.
Sulfur is a macro nutrient. In the MSU fertilizer formulations if you start with a 12-1-12 the sulfur should be a 2. Sulfur is omitted from most formulations because of solubility problems. Any fertilizer that includes Calcium will not have any sulfur, because calcium sulfate will form, which is gypsum. Normally there is enough sulfur in the environment, acid rain, clay soils, etc, that sulfur deficiency is not common. Derek's problem might not be an actual sulfur deficiency. But a second benefit of sulfur in the soil or in the fertilizer is sulfur as it dissolves forms weak acids, sulfonates etc, that help with absorption of iron, manganese, magnesium and other metals needed to create the enzymes needed for metabolism.
Infrequently, but on occasion I have used Epsom salts, magnesium sulfate, at one teaspoon per gallon, or 5 ml by volume per 4 liters, as a low dose foliar spray or a soil drench. I have gone as high as one tablespoon per gallon, 15 ml per 4 liters, with no harmful effect on my trees or my orchids.
I now add elemental sulfur to my potting mix. One tablespoon by volume to a gallon of potting media. 15 ml per roughly 4 liter of potting media. I add it to the media after the final sifting, usually I dampen the media just before mixing in the sulfur. It takes a full year or more for all the sulfur to slowly dissolve into the soil moisture. Provides slow constant acidification of the soil. Enables metal ion uptake, such as iron.
Elemental Sulfur is sold at any full line garden center where they cater to old organic farmers. I have never paid more than $9 per pound. Cheap. It comes in 2 grades, as a soil acidifier, which is a grind like fine sand. This is the product I prefer. Takes one year to dissolve. If all you can find is the powdered sulfur used as a fungicide, the particles are very fine. It can be used as a substitute, but add a third as much and dose 3 times a year. Because it dissolves faster.
You could also add sulfur powder to your organic fertilizer, but you would need to figure out the dose.
Hope this helps
D
Deleted member 21616
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@Leo in N E Illinois thank for all of this very helpful information! it will take my a while to fully understand and absorb it all!
my trees are looking better so it is unlikely that I will intervene further at the moment, and I'm personally inclined to think that I experienced what @0soyoung described above! BUT I do love to keep track of this kind of information, so i can solve future issues - if i may, i do have two questions for you:
first question: this year my trees are in perlite, turface, and some orchid-type coco pieces (no salt in the coco), and i fertilize heavily with Biogold. Do you know if Biogold would ordinarily have the amounts of sulphur a tree needs?
second question: would magnesium sulphate (epsom) or ferric sulphate (iron fertilizer or chelate?) as a foliar spray (or poured on the soil?) do the same job as elemental sulphur in the substrate? I'm less inclined to add sulphur to my substrate, since the issue only occurred in my dwarf maples - it's just easier to target-spray as-needed, as opposed to blanket treat, maybe unnecessarily?
sorry if I've totally misunderstood you! I have no background in chemistry or botany except what i've learned on this forum
my trees are looking better so it is unlikely that I will intervene further at the moment, and I'm personally inclined to think that I experienced what @0soyoung described above! BUT I do love to keep track of this kind of information, so i can solve future issues - if i may, i do have two questions for you:
first question: this year my trees are in perlite, turface, and some orchid-type coco pieces (no salt in the coco), and i fertilize heavily with Biogold. Do you know if Biogold would ordinarily have the amounts of sulphur a tree needs?
second question: would magnesium sulphate (epsom) or ferric sulphate (iron fertilizer or chelate?) as a foliar spray (or poured on the soil?) do the same job as elemental sulphur in the substrate? I'm less inclined to add sulphur to my substrate, since the issue only occurred in my dwarf maples - it's just easier to target-spray as-needed, as opposed to blanket treat, maybe unnecessarily?
sorry if I've totally misunderstood you! I have no background in chemistry or botany except what i've learned on this forum
Leo in N E Illinois
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Answer roughly is yes. Acid plant foods use ammonium sulfate as one source of nitrogen and the sulfates tend to hang around a little while interacting with the soil microbiome. They do help acidify the media. And or are absorbed if used as foliar sprays.
I'm not familiar with Biogold, so I can not answer the question.
I have use coconut husk chunks as media myself, they are a good product.
I'm not familiar with Biogold, so I can not answer the question.
I have use coconut husk chunks as media myself, they are a good product.
Gustavo Martins
Omono
Just thinking...
@derek7745 Do you use tap water for watering your trees? Have you ever had it tested for alkalinity? Maybe your tap is high in alkalinity which will buffer against pH variations...
You can probably ask a pet shop (with aquarium stuff) to make a sample test for you. There's a test kit called kH that tests alkalinity (= carbonate hardness).
@derek7745 Do you use tap water for watering your trees? Have you ever had it tested for alkalinity? Maybe your tap is high in alkalinity which will buffer against pH variations...
You can probably ask a pet shop (with aquarium stuff) to make a sample test for you. There's a test kit called kH that tests alkalinity (= carbonate hardness).
D
Deleted member 21616
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Thanks for the idea! Until very recently I kept a reef aquarium (for 12 years). I used to test alkalinity regularly (just to make sure it was in range, i never understood what it really was LOL). If the test kits I have lying around are expired, i'll swing by my local reef shop and have it tested. Do you know what the range should be? i'm guessing it won't be the same as the 'safe range' indicated on the kit for salt water aquariums.
Thank you!
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Around 5.5 is the Goldie Locks zone.
Gustavo Martins
Omono
I think above 4 you start to have some buffer capacity.
In a simplistic way, it just measures the susceptibility of water to change pH. Also, More often than not, although not necessarily correlated, a high alkalinity is also associated with a high pH.
There is also gH but that only measures the amount (in terms of ions) of Mg and Ca in the water.
In a simplistic way, it just measures the susceptibility of water to change pH. Also, More often than not, although not necessarily correlated, a high alkalinity is also associated with a high pH.
There is also gH but that only measures the amount (in terms of ions) of Mg and Ca in the water.
Cosmos
Shohin
Derek, I haven’t been in the game any longer than you have
From what I gathered, our water is both alkaline and quite hard - so I was quite surprised by your pH results of 5,5, I’ve heard around 7,5 is the norm. The hardness is confirmed by the eye test - terra cotta pots accumulate mineral residue very quickly (patina!) over a few months.
All water in Montréal comes from the Atwater facility.
See these links:
https://www.aquamaster.ca/about-water/hard-water
https://www.hydrosolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/annex_water_hardness.pdf
https://ville.montreal.qc.ca/pls/po...CUMENTS/DRINKINK_WATER_ANNUAL_REPORT_2012.PDF
D
Deleted member 21616
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well, in addition to the previous test kit bought at the pharmacy, *three* additional test kits all indicate a PH no higher than 6...
but to be safe, and also to approach that PH 5.5 sweet spot, as I repot my trees next spring (i was intending to use akadama), maybe I will include from rough peat as Walter Pall does:
http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2009/04/rough-peat.html
but i think what I have is the dusty kind he says to avoid here:
http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2010/06/feeding-substrate-and-watering-english.html
I also have a mixture of equal parts peat-loam and composted pine mulch that I use for my full-size potted japanese maples. That mix nails the acidity, but it looks like ordinary soil, but just a little chunkier. Maybe I could use 10-15% of that, mixed into either akadama or my current mixture (perlite, turface, and some orchid-type coco pieces).
i'm hoping that i'm over thinking all of this, and that these 4 trees are just playing games with my head. But in any case, acidifying the soil might be a good idea anyways right?
but to be safe, and also to approach that PH 5.5 sweet spot, as I repot my trees next spring (i was intending to use akadama), maybe I will include from rough peat as Walter Pall does:
http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2009/04/rough-peat.html
but i think what I have is the dusty kind he says to avoid here:
http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2010/06/feeding-substrate-and-watering-english.html
I also have a mixture of equal parts peat-loam and composted pine mulch that I use for my full-size potted japanese maples. That mix nails the acidity, but it looks like ordinary soil, but just a little chunkier. Maybe I could use 10-15% of that, mixed into either akadama or my current mixture (perlite, turface, and some orchid-type coco pieces).
i'm hoping that i'm over thinking all of this, and that these 4 trees are just playing games with my head. But in any case, acidifying the soil might be a good idea anyways right?
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LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
My goodness yes! Not quite sure how your drinking water barely reaches 6.0. Your soil would seem acidic enough if your using tap water.
5.5 maybe a "sweet spot" but rainwater or tap water won't get you there, so it's about the soil at that point.
D
Deleted member 21616
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I agree that is weird - i'm reading now and it should be above 6.5 across canada...
I know i'm not mis-using the test kits, and the kits were not expired
I just reached out to a company in Montreal that does free in-home water quality testing, with the goal of eliminating the use of plastic bottles. They test:
- HARDNESS
- NITRATES
- IRON
- LEAD
- CHLORINE
- ALKALINITY
- PH
- SULFUR
D
Deleted member 21616
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@0soyoung this is officially the theory that i’m accepting
i noticed this morning that my sango kaku mother plant, which i don’t pay much attention to, is also chlorotic (less than my dwarves though).
HOWEVER, the *only * difference between dwarves and my sango kaku mother plant is that the latter is planted in composted pine mulch and peat loam, which gives me confidence that the issue cannot be with PH.
In terms of everything else: water, biogold, weather etc. the dwarves and the sango kaku receive the same!
If i were to take 0so’s theory as a hypothesis regarding my dwarves, the theory might receive additional support from the fact that sango kaku is widely known to do significantly less well in colder climates in comparison to other acer palmatums!
@Bonsai Nut @River's Edge @LanceMac10 @Leo in N E Illinois @AlainK i welcome your thoughts on this idea!
as an aside, the above discussion has not been in vain - your ideas have forced me to think about things i would not normally think about and, at the expense of sleepless nights and a racing heart, i think i learned a lot this week - as much about iron and epsom as i did, i hope, the perils of overthinking and overcomplicating this. Thank you all!
like a parent whose first born is sick for the first time... ???
anyways, the trees are looking better every day
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0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Until one finds the answers, or gets through the first experience, there is no such thing as 'overthinking'.
Overcomplicating is best dealt with by a healthy dose of the Hitchhiker's Guide --> DON'T PANIC!
Leo in N E Illinois
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I read the Montreal 2012 water analysis provided by @Cosmos , relax, your water is fine. I would be happy using that water. They did not display Total Alkalinity, but the Total Dissolved Solids is in the report. The average is 178 ppm (mg/liter). This would suggest that your Total Alkalinity is about 120 to 150 mg/liter as calcium carbonate. This is a medium to medium-low level of buffer capacity. I really don't think your water is a problem. Relax, your maples will be fine.
Leo in N E Illinois
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Search pH and my name as author, a number of times I have explained that pH is trivial when it comes to plants. The key to pay attention to is Total Alkalinity, which is a direct measure of buffer capacity. Buffer Capacity can not be estimated from pH, but it can be estimated from total dissolved solids. Your municipal water is medium on the spectrum, it is unlikely to be source of any problems.
How is the pine mulch composted? Has it been pH adjusted? Did it have FeSo4 added to it? Did it have copper added to it? All wood waste and peats must have both Fe and Cu added to make up acceptable mixes. Unless they contain soil or other materials with these 2 elements. Most other trace elements should be available - especially Manganese - for several months of good growth. It is unlikely that added fertilizers will be able to supply enough Iron (especially) and Cu as well. Also, every cultivar is probably different in it's ability to uptake nutrients. It really helps if you can answer these questions so you are armed with the necessary information to continue your investigations. Was lime or dolomite applied to the bark or peat? If so how much? In other words, do you actually know the pH of the mix? (not the water) Pull the plant out of the pot and look at the roots. Do you see clean white root tips? If not, the mix may contain toxins (undecomposed organic materials) How old was the composted bark? Iron is mainly taken up at the root tip and the plant will show chlorosis regardless of the how much Fe is in the mix if the roots are no good. Too much water is also no good. J Maples don't need much. Just slightly more than pines. An overly wet soil compounds existing problems. Osoyoung's mention of the possible need for more warmth is also valid.
If the materials were not pH adjusted it is likely they are acid and perhaps very acid. Unadjusted peat is about 4 and bark is about 5. That can lead to ammonium build up (from the osmocote) because little or none is converted to nitrate. Root damage can follow. Japanese Maples like a neutral to slightly acid medium about 6 to 7. You should check that to. If you have good roots and acceptable pH, you are closer to the answer. You can then start to look at nutrients. For Fe, you can determine if that is the issue by spraying chelated Iron on to the leaves. If you get an improvement, you are closer to an answer. If not you could try magnesium sulphate spray. I have doubts that this is the problem because the chlorosis appears to be more on the younger leaves. When you buy a composted bark product, you should ask the supplier EXACTLY what it is, what's in it, (what's been added and how much) and how mature it is. (how long has it sat moist) If in doubt with any mix, do the radish seed test. You should find details online. Otherwise I can note them down for you later on.
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