Root bound bonsai in summer-What to do?

[Katie0317]

I've been struggling with a new shohin trident maple and today I removed the soil on top of the tree to see. It's been staying wet, and I haven't watered it in 2 days.

I found it to be very root bound. The roots have grown over the wire holding them down and there is very little soil in the pot. Am not clear why it was staying wet but it was. It was finally dry when I looked at it today. I watered the roots and put new soil on top and watered again.

I'd messaged my instructor at his nursery and he had a terrible loss of someone dear to him yesterday.

Am not comfortable taking this out of the pot myself and repotting and it will be at least a week before I can get it to an expert look at. I'll keep it out of direct sun and water carefully.

Is there anything else I can or should do right now?

 

[yashu]

Is the tree suffering? Are there any signs in the foliage that it’s not getting water or that there could be a fungal or some other issue? Is it just not drying as quickly as you’d expect?

 

[LeftHandLuke]

Others will have more advanced advice but there's definitely one thing you can do right now: Tilt the pot up at an angle to impact water drainage. Go do that now... place a stone or something under one end so the pot leans at a fairly steep angle and let it sit for a few minutes... and then you should see a pool of water under it right away. Then let us know if that happens.

 

[0soyoung]

Root bound and too wet is an oxymoron IMO.
'Root bound' is pretty much the state of a bonsai in maintenance = nothing to panic about.

If you water and it doesn't drain, take a handy thin pointy object (a chop stick, an ice pick, a screw driver, the closed points of your pruning scissors, or etc.) and plunge it into the substrate in several places (maybe even wiggle it about a bit) = that should get you through this season so that you can repot at a time you are familiar with (late winter = when buds swell).

 

[LeftHandLuke]

plunge it into the substrate in several places

Hmm... Water is getting to the roots but not going away. It sounds like a drainage issue. How will poking holes in the root ball fix that?

 

[Katie0317]

I've done the pot tilting, and am not sure it did much. The tree began having brown edges and I posted about it under Brown Tips on Trident Leaves, Please help and I got an excellent response from many here on BN. It helped up to a point. I began to find that the soil was staying a bit too wet. I put it in the shade and didn't water for a few days. (I did this after measuring with a chop stick overnight, and it was wet).

I think it was staying wet overall and the tilting wasn't effective. It's not drenched, just staying wet.

Finally, after doing a lot of reading I took the soil off the top of the tree and saw it was extremely root bound.

Was I over watering before that? I don't think so. All my other trees are fine.

So there it is. Have never heard that poking holes in the rootball is a good idea but thank you for the thought. I'll keep it in mind.

 

[LeftHandLuke]

If any residual water drained when you tilted the pot (even a few tablespoons), that can make a difference in a poorly draining pot. I rescued a trident shohin this summer whose leaves were turning brown doing this so was hoping it would help you, too. You may have a different issue, though.

 

[Katie0317]

If any residual water drained when you tilted the pot (even a few tablespoons), that can make a difference in a poorly draining pot. I rescued a trident shohin this summer whose leaves were turning brown doing this so was hoping it would help you, too. You may have a different issue, though.

This is a shohin sized tree. A couple tablespoons would be huge.

The root mass is very thick and I think the mesh of roots is holding the water. So it's just constantly wet and not drying out as it should.

Am just thinking I should water it less but I have no expertise. It needs to be repotted but not knowing how to go about it is keeping me from attempting it. I could do more damage to the roots. Usually when I've repotted a tree, the roots are loose and come out with ease.

I did one that was pot bound and I used a kama knife along the edges and lifted it out in a solid square. It was a boxwood though and very forgiving. Having seen that come out in a square was freaky and I don't want to try it again with a tree I really like.

 

[19Mateo83]

Any pictures of this tree and the soil surface and roots if possible?

 

[yashu]

The root mass is very thick and I think the mesh of roots is holding the water. So it's just constantly wet and not drying out as it should.

The roots need air as much as they need water, it’s a balance. What @Osoyoung suggested is not an uncommon way to deal with a rootball in that condition. You allow air to penetrate as well as water.

Am just thinking I should water it less but I have no expertise. It needs to be repotted but not knowing how to go about it is keeping me from attempting it. I could do more damage to the roots. Usually when I've repotted a tree, the roots are loose and come out with ease.

Your thoughts are correct. It doesn’t make sense to water a tree that’s still wet. As they say, you don’t water on a schedule, you water when the tree needs it.

I did one that was pot bound and I used a kama knife along the edges and lifted it out in a solid square. It was a boxwood though and very forgiving. Having seen that come out in a square was freaky and I don't want to try it again with a tree I really like.

This is also not uncommon. Watch videos of any of the higher level practitioners repotting their trees. Most will tell you that you should not be repotting until the roots fully occupy all the space in the pot. This eventually leads to the type of root ramification that you want.

 

[bwaynef]

I'm willing to concede that Central FL is a bit different than where I'm at, but I would caution against full-on repotting a trident now. Particularly one that's shown any sign of weakness. I'd make sure the drainage holes are clear, then penetrate the rootball as mentioned above. Limp thru the rest of this year and give it a proper repot next spring.

(I've heard of folks repotting trident in early Summer, but it involves defoliating the tree. With any other option on the table, its not something I'd recommend.)

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Repotting now would be a mistake and an unnecessary risk. There is a right season for all work and you‘ll be more successful if you stick to it.

Watch soil moisture as you are and water when it’s getting dry. The days it rains in the afternoon for 15 minutes is probably enough for the day and not too much to drown the roots. Trees slow transpiration rates when it’s really hot, so they consume less water. It’s counterintuitive but true.

What you really need is a few more trees to fuss over so you aren’t loving this one to death.

 

[Katie0317]

Thanks all. Because of some of the experts on BN, (You know who you are.) I've been even more careful than usual with doing on this anything more than looking at the roots on this tree.

As for needing more trees to fuss over...Not at all. I have over a dozen and they're all fine. I grow roses and we have over 150 orchids. I'm not fussing over it but I'll tell you, I've had one tropical up and die on me with no notice. It freaked me out and I don't want to lose this tree. I don't have deciduous trees so this is a learning experience. Tropicals seem a bit more delicate than deciduous but then run like clockwork when you understand their needs. That's been my experience with them so far.

With the trident, first it had spider mites and now finding it root bound.

@yashu Btw, you say most roots were like the one I repotted. Not usually. The boxwood was a solid block of roots with another solid block of roots inside of it. So it was first rootbound and then someone repotted it in a bigger pot without sorting out the roots first. I even found a screen inside the inner block of roots...A mess, but it bounced back with no issues.

I did find a well known expert in my area and he invited us to come see him work on a clients trees and I'm hoping at some point he can look at this tree. He gave me a little advice on Tridents in Florida without yet knowing much about mine. I'll share what he wrote in case it will help someone else.

Pasting:
Maples should be growing right now, however those are from northern China and Japan so they aren't used to the sun intensity or the heat here in Florida. For that reason I place mine where they get morning sun and afternoon shade. That may solve your problem. They also need adequate water. You can pull it out of the pot, carefully, and inspect the roots. If it wasn't repoted last winter it will have a very thick mat of roots on the bottom which takes up a lot of room where there should be soil. That condition leads to drying out in our long hot afternoons and could lead to leaf drop. Also, if it's sitting in full sun all day the excessive heat may cause it to go into a condition we call summer dormancy, which also leads to leaf drop.
End of paste.

I wonder if removing the screens from the bottom would help? Taking an exacto knife and removing at least part of the screen? There are really only roots above the drainage holes so I don't know if that would hurt, but it may not help.

Hopefully this expert in my area can take a look and go from there. I think that I'm comparing apples to oranges...Thinking of a deciduous maple like a serissa or other tropical. If a serissa stays wet it will begin to die very quickly. I thought that could happen with this. It sounds like that's not the case. It seems that it would decline but not die quickly like a tropical.

Thank you.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

In my yard there are a couple of pines that have draining issues because their mycorrhizae form a dense mat around the pot hole.
I do two things: let them dry out so the fungus recedes, and I scrape away everything that blocks the hole.
Putting it in a plastic container with holes all around can help as well. If it's that rootbound, you can probably take it out of the pot without losing any soil or damaging too many roots.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I looked in vain for photos to see what this situation looks like. btw Images would help a real lot on issues like this. Otherwise we are shooting somewhat “in the dark “.

btw If the tree is in one of those stylish low profile maple shohin pots it will take longer to dry then a taller pot.

Besides that, you have been given some good advice. Here’s a couple notes added to two.

1. Aerate the rootball. I have used a long drill bit , letting the roots guide the drill for at least three years to positive effect. for every cultivar/species here.. All those trees are still alive and kicking

2.Ensure a wet/dry cycle occurs.

3. Tilt the pot. Works best if there are drain holes at the sides and the ends to facilitate drainage. All my pots are drilled to help during our periods of continuous rain. If fired clay, get a 5/16 or 1/2” ceramic drill bit and drill more drain holes…. you can do it with the tree potted… use a spray bottle to keep the it wet. A good drill bit should cost about 18,00. There is a bonsai Mirai videos showing how to do this

4. Slip pot the tree into another, plastic trainer pot with extra holes drilled in for drainage pot. Just make the pot a bit deeper and slightly wider with the same media….. Actually if your tree is in a plastic pot, you can just drill it now.

5. Get more trees.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Katie0317]

@DSD as to what it looks like...I took pictures a week ago and posted it but it's looking sad since then. I'll try and get another one and you can see the difference. It's drooping. It was still putting out new buds though, at least until very recently. It looks like a tree that hasn't been watered, not a tree with too much water but maybe they appear similar. I wouldn't know.

I've never used a drill. (Don't judge me. Smile...) I'll see if my husband's willing to do it. He has every tool imaginable. Since it's my tree and I don't use a drill, do you concur that using a sharp object to aerate the root ball is okay to do...a metal shop stick or a scissor?

@Brian You said that trees slow transpiration rates when it's really hot. That is counterintuitive. Does anyone know why? Is this the tree trying to retain water based on their own internal 'intelligence' or something else? Do you agree that I should aerate the root ball with something sharp?

@yashu Thanks for sharing that waiting until the pot is filled with roots helps with ramification. I didn't know that but it makes sense.

@Wires_Guy_wires So you agree I could or should remove the drain hole screens, since that's blocking the drain hole to some degree. If there is any soil left there it would probably be broken down enough to allow more water out. I like the idea of putting drain holes on the sides of the pot and then tilting the pot. This appears to be a cheap Chinese pot so it wouldn't hurt to do that.

It was interesting to me that the expert I contacted is a long time Floridian or a native and he mentioned repotting this in winter, (not spring). That may be the rule of thumb here. I'll find out.

If this were a serissa I'd have to repot now or lose the tree. Am glad that's not the case with this.

Thanks all.

 

[Scorpius]

If you're having drainage issues and you have either a mica or plastic pot you can drill some extra drainage holes in the pot. No need to remove the tree from the pot. I've done this in situations with trees having wet feet and repotting was a no go.

 

[River's Edge]

Hmm... Water is getting to the roots but not going away. It sounds like a drainage issue. How will poking holes in the root ball fix that?

seriously?

 

[Katie0317]

I was told by the expert in Fl that it should go in a larger pot for now and then be repotted in winter. I knew deciduous trees get repotted in winter here in Florida. Am going to make some notes and ask him about some of the suggestions/opinions offered here and see what he says. Doesn't mean someone else is right and someone else is wrong...It's another opinion.

He also offered to help me repot my BRT now. I didn't know that summer was the time to repot them in Florida so am glad he offered. I think the BRT came from the same person and so it's probably root bound and needs to be repotted too.

Thank you again.

 

[a1dusty]

Thanks all. Because of some of the experts on BN, (You know who you are.) I've been even more careful than usual with doing on this anything more than looking at the roots on this tree.

As for needing more trees to fuss over...Not at all. I have over a dozen and they're all fine. I grow roses and we have over 150 orchids. I'm not fussing over it but I'll tell you, I've had one tropical up and die on me with no notice. It freaked me out and I don't want to lose this tree. I don't have deciduous trees so this is a learning experience. Tropicals seem a bit more delicate than deciduous but then run like clockwork when you understand their needs. That's been my experience with them so far.

With the trident, first it had spider mites and now finding it root bound.

@yashu Btw, you say most roots were like the one I repotted. Not usually. The boxwood was a solid block of roots with another solid block of roots inside of it. So it was first rootbound and then someone repotted it in a bigger pot without sorting out the roots first. I even found a screen inside the inner block of roots...A mess, but it bounced back with no issues.

I did find a well known expert in my area and he invited us to come see him work on a clients trees and I'm hoping at some point he can look at this tree. He gave me a little advice on Tridents in Florida without yet knowing much about mine. I'll share what he wrote in case it will help someone else.

Pasting:
Maples should be growing right now, however those are from northern China and Japan so they aren't used to the sun intensity or the heat here in Florida. For that reason I place mine where they get morning sun and afternoon shade. That may solve your problem. They also need adequate water. You can pull it out of the pot, carefully, and inspect the roots. If it wasn't repoted last winter it will have a very thick mat of roots on the bottom which takes up a lot of room where there should be soil. That condition leads to drying out in our long hot afternoons and could lead to leaf drop. Also, if it's sitting in full sun all day the excessive heat may cause it to go into a condition we call summer dormancy, which also leads to leaf drop.
End of paste.

I wonder if removing the screens from the bottom would help? Taking an exacto knife and removing at least part of the screen? There are really only roots above the drainage holes so I don't know if that would hurt, but it may not help.

Hopefully this expert in my area can take a look and go from there. I think that I'm comparing apples to oranges...Thinking of a deciduous maple like a serissa or other tropical. If a serissa stays wet it will begin to die very quickly. I thought that could happen with this. It sounds like that's not the case. It seems that it would decline but not die quickly like a tropical.

Thank you.

Hi
If I have any tree mid season root bound and not draining well I transplant (not doing anything with roots) into a pot that has at least an inch all round and under root ball , put a very free drawing soil or kanuma around and under the tree , drainage will then not be a problem , I have done this with all types of bonsai with no problems at all , the sometimes take a week or two to get used to it but then they flourish