Mara of dragon clan
Mame
Canada is possibly going to start getting prunus mume... saw seedlings for $70... fainted. Id love to have one as a bonsai but is that price worth?
$70 Prunus mume seedling
- Thread starter Mara of dragon clan
- Start date
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
I have bad luck with seedlings and have decided they are not cost-effective. Often the freight doubles the price anyway.
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
Seedlings have less value compared to cuttings of desirable cultivars. Even then the value is dependant on the size, age and specific cultivar. I would be cautious if the seller is advertising seedlings.
Pitoon
Imperial Masterpiece
1. With seedlings you have no idea what flower color or type you will get.
2. It could be years....more than a decade to see it mature enough to bloom.
3. $70 for an unknown seedling is EXPENSIVE!
2. It could be years....more than a decade to see it mature enough to bloom.
3. $70 for an unknown seedling is EXPENSIVE!
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
Are you talking about mume at CanadaBonsai.com?? The variety IDs are quite specific, the price is about $70 (Canadian?), but not available until next year.
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
If that is the case then they are clearly described as cuttings and the photos show very early progression that would suggest a year before saleability of the stock. Good to see the progression, a lot of work goes into the propagation of mume.
Mara of dragon clan
Mame
Yes it was those ones. I have a goal to grow a mume in my bonsai journey. Thank you for the thoughts
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
First picture is Kobai cuttings at 3 weeks for reference when I say the cuttings look young. Second is the Kobai bloom. Remaining shots are of nice trees for encouragement.
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SeanS
Omono
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Definitely not seedlings, @Canada Bonsai grows these from cuttings.
Aren’t the white ones available now?
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Go ahead and try, then you can determine if $70 is a good price. You’ll need to find a source and have a little luck/skill growing them up there.
@Canada Bonsai is a solid character trying to bring rare material to your country. I’d support that if you’re serious in your bonsai journey.
Pitoon
Imperial Masterpiece
Excellent pics!
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
Thank you, the mature specimens were my photos from Taikan Ten, Kyoto in 2015. The cuttings and blooms from my nursery. The price set by Canada Bonsai is comparable to cost of similar product in the USA if not a bit less expensive from my experience. The amount of work to raise healthy Mume cuttings up to two years of age is considerable. Due to the slow development of root structure, at least two years is needed for healthy transferable plants to become stable for sale.The percentage of successful cutting is quite variable unless considerable expense goes into special equipment and continuous care. Supply will likely not meet demand for many years even with reasonable amounts of consistent success.
There are so many other easier species to propagate in the industry, who knows how long individuals will focus on Mume. It is great that opportunities exist in different locations to ensure the availability of various cultivars. If the right individual obtain plants then the availability will improve over time. 3 year cutting below.
Pitoon
Imperial Masterpiece
The work involved with growing a seedling from seed and tending to a cutting is completely different. My original post was under the impression that the mume's were seedlings from seeds, not actual grown cuttings.
I'm in the process of collecting as many cultivars I can find. So far I have the following cultivars..... ‘Kanko Bai’, ‘Kobai’, ‘Matsubara Red’, ‘Mokel’, ‘Peggy Clarke’, ‘Roseglow’, ‘Rosemary Clarke’, 'Bungo'. It's not easy finding them that's for sure, and there's so many more cultivars to find.
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
Very true, I am working with two cultivars only, Kobai and Matsubara Red. White is available but I have chosen not to work with it as it is the most commonly available.
Mara of dragon clan
Mame
Pleased to learn so much from others experiences thank you
Canada Bonsai
Chumono
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@mara of dragon glad to hear you love Ume!
I wish my pictures would have been better! Unfortunately, because I had +500 trees to photograph for the spring release, I set up the white backdrop and photographed everything in two days. That means I don't get maples as their buds are unfolding, or cherries as they're flowering, etc.
Cuttings
The people who ordered this: https://www.canadabonsai.com/collections/japanese-apricot-ume/products/white-yabai
Received a cutting that looks like the attached images 'yabai cutings' 1 and 2. The feedback I've received has been overwhelming
People seem to really love this species!
These cuttings have reached a point where if you pull on the stem the entire root ball pops out in the shape of the pot and holds together
Seedlings
In 2020 I sold 'root stock' (image attached). I missed a year because of my move from Montreal to Halifax. But I will have more in 2022. These are plants that are grown from seed, and I produce the seed myself because the importation of Prunus mume seed is banned by the CFIA. My teacher in Quebec does the same. These seedlings are developed solely for the sake of grafting cultivars (see final image). When I sell these, the 'product description' notes that these are not intended to be trained as bonsai... but I saw people wiring them up anyways, which is totally fine!
Bonsai
In 2019/2020 I invested a lot of time and effort sending translators on the ground in Japan to visit nurseries to ask questions for me about pre-bonsai development techniques. We also visited dedicated Ume growers in both the bonsai and agricultural industries, as well as people who grow them as 'mallsai' (LOL) for New Years celebrations. I won't get into the challenges of breaking the ice and becoming friends with a nurseryman on the other side of the planet through a translator... Here is what I learned on this topic:
The prospect of producing Ume cultivars by cuttings is misguided for two reasons. First, most cultivars simply cannot be propagated by cutting. Second, in bonsai we tend to prefer cuttings over grafts for the sake of avoiding unsightly graft junctions. This is true for many species, but not for Ume! When it comes to Ume, not only is it very acceptable to graft cultivars onto trees for bonsai, but the practice of producing and maintaining high level Ume bonsai almost always requires repeated grafting throughout the tree's life. Of course, several aspects of Ume aesthetics (bark, deadwood, angles) are good ways to disguise graft junctions, but that isn't always necessary.
That said, i spoke with people who prefer to create 'root stock' via seed, and others who prefer cuttings (i'm currently using both methods). Regarding cuttings, @River's Edge single-handedly produced a spectacular manuscript that, in my opinion, is on par with the famous 'Ebihara thread' in terms of value and detail. It's a thread of gold: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/p...ng-early-winter-the-peter-adams-method.36065/
The Future
I'm currently working with 41 Ume cultivars.
Bonsai: The last image I attached shows 6 grafts on 1 root stock. I have quite a few of these. My hope is to reach a point where I can sell cultivars grafted onto root stock like this to the Canadian bonsai community. There are a few ways to develop material like this.
New Years: Canada has a fairly large asian population. I have now received 3 business-relationship offers to produce 'mallsai' for New Years celebrations. These are cultures and a holiday that I am not familiar with, so i have been speaking with people from these communities and researching to see if this can be done in a noble way.
Landscape: I'm in discussion with a few Canadian nurseries to see if I can start producing Ume as potted landscape specimens. As much as I love bonsai, my dream would be to develop truly beautiful Japanese Maples and Apricots in the 36-72" height range as 'garden trees' that are meant to remain in pots (partly because our climate and weather is not kind to these species in the ground). Maybe Cherries too.
I wish my pictures would have been better! Unfortunately, because I had +500 trees to photograph for the spring release, I set up the white backdrop and photographed everything in two days. That means I don't get maples as their buds are unfolding, or cherries as they're flowering, etc.
Cuttings
The people who ordered this: https://www.canadabonsai.com/collections/japanese-apricot-ume/products/white-yabai
Received a cutting that looks like the attached images 'yabai cutings' 1 and 2. The feedback I've received has been overwhelming
People seem to really love this species!These cuttings have reached a point where if you pull on the stem the entire root ball pops out in the shape of the pot and holds together
Seedlings
In 2020 I sold 'root stock' (image attached). I missed a year because of my move from Montreal to Halifax. But I will have more in 2022. These are plants that are grown from seed, and I produce the seed myself because the importation of Prunus mume seed is banned by the CFIA. My teacher in Quebec does the same. These seedlings are developed solely for the sake of grafting cultivars (see final image). When I sell these, the 'product description' notes that these are not intended to be trained as bonsai... but I saw people wiring them up anyways, which is totally fine!
Bonsai
In 2019/2020 I invested a lot of time and effort sending translators on the ground in Japan to visit nurseries to ask questions for me about pre-bonsai development techniques. We also visited dedicated Ume growers in both the bonsai and agricultural industries, as well as people who grow them as 'mallsai' (LOL) for New Years celebrations. I won't get into the challenges of breaking the ice and becoming friends with a nurseryman on the other side of the planet through a translator... Here is what I learned on this topic:
The prospect of producing Ume cultivars by cuttings is misguided for two reasons. First, most cultivars simply cannot be propagated by cutting. Second, in bonsai we tend to prefer cuttings over grafts for the sake of avoiding unsightly graft junctions. This is true for many species, but not for Ume! When it comes to Ume, not only is it very acceptable to graft cultivars onto trees for bonsai, but the practice of producing and maintaining high level Ume bonsai almost always requires repeated grafting throughout the tree's life. Of course, several aspects of Ume aesthetics (bark, deadwood, angles) are good ways to disguise graft junctions, but that isn't always necessary.
That said, i spoke with people who prefer to create 'root stock' via seed, and others who prefer cuttings (i'm currently using both methods). Regarding cuttings, @River's Edge single-handedly produced a spectacular manuscript that, in my opinion, is on par with the famous 'Ebihara thread' in terms of value and detail. It's a thread of gold: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/p...ng-early-winter-the-peter-adams-method.36065/
The Future
I'm currently working with 41 Ume cultivars.
Bonsai: The last image I attached shows 6 grafts on 1 root stock. I have quite a few of these. My hope is to reach a point where I can sell cultivars grafted onto root stock like this to the Canadian bonsai community. There are a few ways to develop material like this.
New Years: Canada has a fairly large asian population. I have now received 3 business-relationship offers to produce 'mallsai' for New Years celebrations. These are cultures and a holiday that I am not familiar with, so i have been speaking with people from these communities and researching to see if this can be done in a noble way.
Landscape: I'm in discussion with a few Canadian nurseries to see if I can start producing Ume as potted landscape specimens. As much as I love bonsai, my dream would be to develop truly beautiful Japanese Maples and Apricots in the 36-72" height range as 'garden trees' that are meant to remain in pots (partly because our climate and weather is not kind to these species in the ground). Maybe Cherries too.
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leatherback
The Treedeemer
fast forward 43 years, lol
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
Actually some mume cultivars grow rapidly compared to a lot of Bonsai species. Kobai for example can produce six to eight feet of growth in a season. This puts their development progress more in the twenty year range as opposed to the forty or fifty year range of slower species that require greater levels of refinement. Matsubara Red, however would definitely fall in the fifty year range
For speed and economics grafting is a common option as pointed out above. This is a popular option for commercial production of Ume. I do think one needs to remember that Ume are not suitable for a wide range of climate and can be prone to fungal issues. This is similar to Azalea where many people have found that they are not viable as landscape species in their climate, but can be easily maintained as spectacular Bonsai with additional care and protection possible for potted specimens. I do not consider Ume a good species for inexperienced bonsai enthusiasts. Think more along the lines of high maintenance and standard of care.
For example their are many spectacular Azalea bonsai in the San Francisco area, however they struggle in the cool damp landscape with many fungal issues. In fact the numbers have dramatically been reduced in many of the parks in San Francisco. Best example of that is the Golden Gate Park and the Japanese Garden located within the park. Yet with careful care they make outstanding bonsai.
For this reason I recommend that Ume owners have the option to provide winter protection as needed and use certain practices to prevent fungal issues.
Simple practises such as well drain gin substrate that is not highly moisture retentive, particularly if in a rainy cool climate. Winter protection from cold (-10 celsius) or continuous rainy weather patterns. My healthiest stock reside in containers that provide well aerated roots that remain moist without trapping water within the pot. For growing out young stock, pond baskets can work very well, terra cotta pots with additional drainage holes.
For those who live in milder climates with lots of winter rain, I suggest the following proportions in Bonsai soil mix. 20% Akadama, 40% pumice, 20% lava, 20% granite grit. All components sifted to medium particle size.
I am sure lots of other soil options exist and can function well but this is what I have success with and use for growing and developing Ume after from cuttings onward. For refinement of developed stock I switch to a higher percentage of Akadama and combine with Lava and Grit.
For display purposes I cut out pumice simply because I do not prefer the light color aesthetically in Bonsai display.
For propagation purposes, I did compile a more detailed account for the ABS magazine, Volume 55 Number 1 2021. This article contains a few changes as my approach is improving with experience and adaptation of process. The nuts and bolts are all include in various posts within the thread https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/p...ng-early-winter-the-peter-adams-method.36065/
This ABS magazine also contains an excellent article written by Cheryl Sykora on Elements for Successfully Growing Trees Outside of Their Traditional Zones. This is valuable for those who like to expand their collections with more challenging species. Of interest to some will be
the cover photo is a Scots Pine originally grown by Bill Valavanis that is now part of the Eisei En collection in Nashville, TN. Photograph by Bjorn Bjorholm.
Personal bias here as my favourite tree.s are always pines!
