gallina1594
Shohin
Don't be afraid to experiment! (Within reason of course) As you fail ( which you will, we all do) youll learn from your mistakes and BAM.. Ya learned something new
Advice For Beginners
- Thread starter twisted trees
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mattspinniken
Omono
I agree that beginners tend to waste a lot of time on "crap". Forget the stick and find something that has more potential. On the other hand, im getting an image of beginners working on ancient one of a kind yamadori collected out of the mountains and I don't know if that is a good idea either. Somewhere in the middle maybe.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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I've said this here many times before, but nothing increased the bonsai learning curve more for me then first acquiring and working better stock. In particular, purchasing my first collected RMJ really lit a fire under my ass to learn and do more and more.
herzausstahl
Chumono
Could the cost actually have contributed to this because it potentially was more expensive you wanted it to live vs an indifferent attitude if it didn't if it was cheap? I can see the merit in that for sure.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Start with 3 basic cheap trees in good substrate from a club. One deciduous, One evergreen and one species you just really like. Spend the first 2 years working those, keeping them happy and going through one repot cycle and 2 years of pruning & wiring. If they are happy and healthy, look for better trees.
Trees are plants with a trunk, not 1 year old cuttings of a juniper.
Trees are plants with a trunk, not 1 year old cuttings of a juniper.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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You bet. That collected Rocky Mountain Juniper I mentioned earlier was by far and away my most expensive purchase at that point- $540, but a 70% discount off of the $1800 sticker price. It was also the most unusual, being a very large tree with an amazing deadwood trunk that was anywhere from 500 to 1000 years old. The day I brought it home from New England Bonsai, I started a thread about it on the defunct Bonsaitalk forum, and within a day, I had folks like Walter Pall, Hans Van Meer, and others arguing about whether a "newbie" should own this type of material. Believe it or not, @Smoke was at the center of it, going nose to nose with WP internet style. Walter's stance was that this piece of material, due to it's age and quirky root structure, would be best worked by or under the supervision of a profession or experienced hobbyist. Al disagreed. Anyway, I didn't want to fail the tree and my game was subsequently upped. Here's the thing... I was soooo far out of my comfort zone when I got that tree as $500 was a TON of money for me to drop on a tree at that time in my life, and the tree was OLD! Best bonsai decision I've ever made, though.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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It's here... https://bonsainut.com/threads/yamadori-rocky-mountain-juniper.1211/
I wish I could see the thread from Bonsaitalk, though... ahhh, the good ole' days!
I wish I could see the thread from Bonsaitalk, though... ahhh, the good ole' days!
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
As for the working on crap vs better trees arguement, here is my stance on it:
Someone just starting out, that doesn't have a clue how to keep a tree alive yet and whose enthusiasm to get started doing bonsai is unbounded, cheap nursery material is very appropriate to learn with.
No matter if the tree was a $20 landscape shrub or a $500 pre bonsai, that tree is loved by the owner who wants it to live.
We all kill trees but investing in an expensive tree without even the basic knowledge to keep it alive is a recipe for disaster for both the tree and the would-be bonsai hobbiest.
As we know, most beginners want to do bonsai, they want to play with their tree. We all did it. That enthusiasm is great but dangerous for the tree.
To me those cheap trees can teach us alot of the basics. They respond the same way a more expensive tree of the same species does. They can help us learn to water and fertilize, to overwinter, to repot, to prune, to wire and to just keep the damn thing alive for more than a year. They will eventually teach you what makes good vs bad material.
They will also teach patience. If you don't have it coming in, bonsai will teach you patience, whether you want it or not.
Once you get confidence in your ability to keep a tree alive through the basics of care, repotting, styling etc, then I whole heartedly agree that more expensive material is a good way to advance your knowledge beyond the basics.
Learning bonsai is a journey, not a race. There are no short cuts and we pay the price of learning partly with dead trees. IMO, for a beginner, the lower the initial price of that learning curve is, the greater chance of that person remaining in the hobby for a life time.
Someone just starting out, that doesn't have a clue how to keep a tree alive yet and whose enthusiasm to get started doing bonsai is unbounded, cheap nursery material is very appropriate to learn with.
No matter if the tree was a $20 landscape shrub or a $500 pre bonsai, that tree is loved by the owner who wants it to live.
We all kill trees but investing in an expensive tree without even the basic knowledge to keep it alive is a recipe for disaster for both the tree and the would-be bonsai hobbiest.
As we know, most beginners want to do bonsai, they want to play with their tree. We all did it. That enthusiasm is great but dangerous for the tree.
To me those cheap trees can teach us alot of the basics. They respond the same way a more expensive tree of the same species does. They can help us learn to water and fertilize, to overwinter, to repot, to prune, to wire and to just keep the damn thing alive for more than a year. They will eventually teach you what makes good vs bad material.
They will also teach patience. If you don't have it coming in, bonsai will teach you patience, whether you want it or not.
Once you get confidence in your ability to keep a tree alive through the basics of care, repotting, styling etc, then I whole heartedly agree that more expensive material is a good way to advance your knowledge beyond the basics.
Learning bonsai is a journey, not a race. There are no short cuts and we pay the price of learning partly with dead trees. IMO, for a beginner, the lower the initial price of that learning curve is, the greater chance of that person remaining in the hobby for a life time.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Do you remember the satire piece I did about Walter Pall right after that about me being a stand builder and him being a stand builder groupie in the front row of a large arena. I remember it had something to do with me arriving in a limo and the song Good the Bad and the Ugly playing with me wearing a poncho. I warned people that doing woodwork was something only for the experienced and should only be done under strict professional guidance.
Funny, I never heard Walter ever say anything like that again....silliest statement I ever heard...
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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I remember it went something like that.
herzausstahl
Chumono
From all I've seen of Al on here that doesn't surprise me for a second. His sarcastic humor aside, he's a stand up dude as far as I can tell. I can also understand Walter's concern. If anything the pros were frustrated they missed out on such a deal!
Bonsaikev1985
Mame
perfectly said "Get off the internet and work your trees" that's the best choice I ever made in Bonsai. I started in Bonsai 3 years ago. Although still new into bonsai I used web sources for the first year and half. Looking for answers on "how to" and when I was finished I be so overwhelmed with a 100 ways to do it. Some say that's the right way why others say no no way don't do that. Wasted so much time searching and at the end never getting a answer. Got to the point of being stressed about what was right and wrong, (because of course we don't want to hurt our tree). That I just said Fuck it and went for it. This last year and a half I have learned so much more. Just from taking action and learning from it. If I cut here how will it grow back?, Does this tree like lots of sun?, Is it a heavy feeder? List goes on.... But my best advice for beggingers I help out is " pay attention to your tree, it will tell you what it wants". For a beginner it's like what the hell ya talking about. But with a little bit of knowledge and research of the basics of bonsais that makes alot of sense in time.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
At one point all of us were beginners and I remember those days, many experienced people do not. Absolutely, the best thing you (as a beginner) could possibly do would be to start with doable material---- not what many of us sarcastically call a stick in a pot.
In general the best stuff to start with would be a member of the Juniper family if you live in a Temperate climate and a Ficus in the Tropics or Subtropics. The material you select should have a trunk that looks like a tree and more than a few primary branches. The one major secret of bonsai is that all good bonsai are the product of cutting down large trees into smaller bonsai. It is like a sculpture where you take a large slab of stone and chisel it down into something artistic. It takes more skill and artistic insight and imagination to grow a stick in a pot up into a good bonsai than it does to cut down a larger piece of appropriate and usable material into a bonsai.
The material can cost anywhere from $20 to $4000 depending on your hubris, courage, imagination and bank account. It is not necessary that you start with a priceless Yamadori. If you have to ask what is a Yamadori you'reprobably not ready for one. I know, people have said that Yamadori is the best way to go, believing that wasting time on lesser material to learn bonsai is a wast of time. They are forgetting that those who make that claim are being constantly taught by some professional individual that can coach them through what you and I will learn by trial and error. Which brings up a good point; good teaching will save you a lot of grief learning how to do bonsai. Join a club and find out who in that club has their stuff together in one pile and is ready to share information. As you learn and grow you may want to take classes from some of the big named individuals who haunt the Mt. Olympus of bonsai. They will teach you for a price.
In general the best stuff to start with would be a member of the Juniper family if you live in a Temperate climate and a Ficus in the Tropics or Subtropics. The material you select should have a trunk that looks like a tree and more than a few primary branches. The one major secret of bonsai is that all good bonsai are the product of cutting down large trees into smaller bonsai. It is like a sculpture where you take a large slab of stone and chisel it down into something artistic. It takes more skill and artistic insight and imagination to grow a stick in a pot up into a good bonsai than it does to cut down a larger piece of appropriate and usable material into a bonsai.
The material can cost anywhere from $20 to $4000 depending on your hubris, courage, imagination and bank account. It is not necessary that you start with a priceless Yamadori. If you have to ask what is a Yamadori you'reprobably not ready for one. I know, people have said that Yamadori is the best way to go, believing that wasting time on lesser material to learn bonsai is a wast of time. They are forgetting that those who make that claim are being constantly taught by some professional individual that can coach them through what you and I will learn by trial and error. Which brings up a good point; good teaching will save you a lot of grief learning how to do bonsai. Join a club and find out who in that club has their stuff together in one pile and is ready to share information. As you learn and grow you may want to take classes from some of the big named individuals who haunt the Mt. Olympus of bonsai. They will teach you for a price.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Think about at what learning stage you were at before responding to this revelation? How many years how many trees, and how many failures? You were not a beginner were you?
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
Some of the mistakes we all make as beginners:
There are no shortcuts. Bonsai requires time and effort. Just pruning a tree creates topiary - not bonsai. Bonsai requires styling a tree which requires bending and moving trunks and branches. Learn to wire. When you style a tree, religiously wire every part of the tree. Don't skip part of it because you are tired or lazy.
Then learn to leave trees alone.
Bonsai is definitely a "hurry up and wait" hobby. Be prepared to work all day long on a single tree... and then leave it completely alone for six months.
There are no shortcuts. Bonsai requires time and effort. Just pruning a tree creates topiary - not bonsai. Bonsai requires styling a tree which requires bending and moving trunks and branches. Learn to wire. When you style a tree, religiously wire every part of the tree. Don't skip part of it because you are tired or lazy.
Then learn to leave trees alone.
Bonsai is definitely a "hurry up and wait" hobby. Be prepared to work all day long on a single tree... and then leave it completely alone for six months.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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Baby steps, Vance. I'm not suggesting that a total newcomer purchase an uber expensive and complicated collected tree... far from it. My point is that it's good to periodically push yourself beyond your comfort zone, as the term "better stock" is relative to experience. I had been dabbling in the hobby for maybe 6-7 years before getting the RMJ. In the 3-4 years prior to that, I had acquired a larger field grown JBP and Japanese maple, along with some landscape and bonsai nursery grown junipers and yews with nice trunks, definitely not sticks in pots. I lived very close to New England Bonsai Gardens, and the access/exposure to their collection and sales material had a huge impact on my perspective of the hobby. Prior to that, in my first few years.... I was messing around with crappy sticks in pots, really. It wasn't until I got beyond that phase that my understanding of bonsai horticulture, styling, etc., really began to take off, though. Again, that nursery yew with the fat trunk with decent taper was better then the 2 year old trident maple I purchased as my 2nd or 3rd "bonsai". The yew was a tree I could actually style with wire, carving, and pruning. It was a much more interesting and exciting tree then that young maple. Same thing with the field grown JBP, junipers and maples. They all had better potential then what I had previously worked on and made me want to learn more and try new techniques like grafting and that mysterious de-candling JBP I'd read about. Then, that RMJ and I crossed paths, the price was right, I was extremely nervous but felt like I had to take a stab at it.
