All aboard the Mugo train!

[M. Frary]

I just like to know where this stuff is coming from, more interested in the source and what they have to say.

My guess since it just popped up is it might be coming from Mirailand. Probably for trees other than mugo. Trying out new terms.
All of my pines are elongating now.

 

[Bolter]

I don't know where some of the terminology some of you are using is coming from

Sorry if I was not clear in my question. After the spring flush (while waiting for July to work on a nursery stock Mugo) it seemed like the buds on the tips of the new growth were starting to swell a small amount. I wasn't sure if this is normal at this time of the year.

As far as the terminology, I saw it in this thread and just thought it referred to the forming / developing of buds. I did not know it wasn't commonly used.

 

[Vance Wood]

Sorry if I was not clear in my question. After the spring flush (while waiting for July to work on a nursery stock Mugo) it seemed like the buds on the tips of the new growth were starting to swell a small amount. I wasn't sure if this is normal at this time of the year.

As far as the terminology, I saw it in this thread and just thought it referred to the forming / developing of buds. I did not know it wasn't commonly used.

Yes this is normal. You want them to swell, extend, expand and grow. The more they do that the greater the production of auxins and the more budding you will encounter once you cut back the new growth which you will do in July as well. Yes you can do both if you are carefull and don't bare root.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I just like to know where this stuff is coming from, more interested in the source and what they have to say. It is interesting to think that I might get a second flush of new growth but if I do not, what am I stuck with for another year?

I have a theory that I cannot yet prove but remember theories are nothing more than theories and must be approached as such. For many years now it has been my suspicion that the horticultural community is wrong about dormancy and repotting. The same kind of theories apply to bud reduction/removal issues. Much of what is taught is BS, BS not because someone is trying to pull the wool over your eyes but because in the beginning someone was wrong; made a conclusion and every body there after followed his lead and methods. Eventually a mistake becomes axiomatic and accepted, though unproved or even unprovable the great error becomes theorem.

Let you guys chew on that one for a while and see if taking the time to put this on line is worth the effort sparking a discussion or being ignored as so much has been recently.

Having worked with plants for over a decade now, I can only agree that most procedures come from back in the 60's, 70's and 80's and they're full of shit. I found regular gardening protocols to come short on nearly every aspect. For some tropicals, I decided to go ahead and just write down whatever works.
My collected oaks (in full leaf) all wilted and possibly died, whereas the ones that were collected before spring.. Suddenly rebounded. Even though the British dude that wrote the collecting oaks for bonsai protocol is very much convinced that the best time is when leaves have hardened off. Right now I'm at 70% revival as opposed to 0% with his technique. We have a similar climate.

Much of what is taught was never questioned in the first place. When it didn't work, it just didn't work. You call that BS, I call that being scared of discussing things in a orderly fashion. You've been around long enough to know how discussions on bonsai topics can go. I'm following your lead on mugo without questioning. Maybe I shouldn't do that, maybe I will find out some awesome Mugo trick that isn't in the tutorial. My spring mugo repots turned out fine in all 4 cases. And to be honest, now I'm scared to do a end-of-june repot for the fifth one.

 

[Vance Wood]

Having worked with plants for over a decade now, I can only agree that most procedures come from back in the 60's, 70's and 80's and they're full of shit. I found regular gardening protocols to come short on nearly every aspect. For some tropicals, I decided to go ahead and just write down whatever works.
My collected oaks (in full leaf) all wilted and possibly died, whereas the ones that were collected before spring.. Suddenly rebounded. Even though the British dude that wrote the collecting oaks for bonsai protocol is very much convinced that the best time is when leaves have hardened off. Right now I'm at 70% revival as opposed to 0% with his technique. We have a similar climate.

Much of what is taught was never questioned in the first place. When it didn't work, it just didn't work. You call that BS, I call that being scared of discussing things in a orderly fashion. You've been around long enough to know how discussions on bonsai topics can go. I'm following your lead on mugo without questioning. Maybe I shouldn't do that, maybe I will find out some awesome Mugo trick that isn't in the tutorial. My spring mugo repots turned out fine in all 4 cases. And to be honest, now I'm scared to do a end-of-june repot for the fifth one.

If you are uncomfortable with it don't do it.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Oh I will still do it. It's in a great shape, and I don't want to remove a tonne of soil later on. This one was potted in nursery soil a year or two ago, it's time.. Whether I'm comfortable or not.
I'm just not going to cut off roots, just HBR it while keeping everything. Even circling roots can eventually produce adventitious roots and turn into feeders. That's what ruined my first root over rock larch.

 

[sorce]

Ok.
I saw this visual cue yesterday that I been looking for.
This reinforcement of buds at the tip.

This one decided to go threefer.
View attachment 159809

And this one elongated a bit and tapered out.
View attachment 159810

The Mugo files say Vance cuts em in July.
And I've heard him tell somone do it before the end of August.

I got to thinking about the NATURAL RYTHYM of the tree and how to best utilize it for our purposes.

It is very important to note, that this theory is NOT based on Bonsai, it's based on the NATURAL RYTHYM of the tree and how to utilize it best for our purposes in Bonsai.

As single flush pines, if we consider these 2 season pines, this theory is easier to understand.
A simpler rythym.

The conversation in the tree, as it would be on the mountain, is as follows.

What happened this winter, what have I lost, and what must I do to grow best this year?

What happened this summer, what have I lost, and what what must I do to grow best next season.

That's it. Simple.

Not!

This time right now is the time it has had, or is having, its internal conversation, and deciding what to do. It's already unsafe to cut for bonsai purposes.

But to dive deeper into perfecting timing, and gather as much energy as possible, to keep foliage growing roots all summer..

I propose not to cut in July, but rather, waiting till a week before this "conversation" happens.

Before this ONE VERY PARTICULAR TIME in the trees NATURAL RYTHYM, I believe we are merely confusing it.
Which I think is what causes those little "yeah I got energy" spurts of fake second growth...

View attachment 159820

Which looks like the same Juvenile foliage JBP throws when it is stressed. Hint hint.

Yes we see buds form, or pop, or this fake second flush, after a July cut. Summer damage happens on the mountain too.

But come back down off the mountain...
We are doing bonsai.

That is not what we want.
We want to wait for it to have stored ALL the energy it possibly can before this one particular time in its NATURAL RYTHYM when this conversation happens, so we can allow the tree to have a Bigger Conversation!

More healthy buds!

That alone should gather enough energy to then take advantage of the PROPOSED SPRING PRUNING. *

This one is deeper.

Haven't quirked it out, or seen the season natural enough to study it well yet, but here it is.

When I cut branches in spring, which hasn't been timed or figured, more just clean up to see in when you buy it cuts...
So far just....unneeded big branch removal...

Those actions in spring have created buds further in the interior.
Those cuts made the tree send buds where there were no needles....

Why?
And how to better understand it to utilize this side of the natural rythym?

Because I haven't noticed this further interior budding in July....

I think the tree conversation if cut in spring, before growth starts, goes like this....

What the Fuck? I lost that giant branch out there this winter? Fuck that, I gotta grow back closer to the safety of my trunk.

Hence....better far interior backbudding with spring cutting!

*Proposed Spring Pruning

What of the energy right?

If we look at the NATURAL RYTHYM of these single flush pines...
And the facts of their natural environment, we have a tree which, in nature produces one flush of growth, to sustain it through both these seasons.

Here's my Anti Bow Tie Statement....

One flush of growth, Plus older needles, is what gets this tree all the way thru 2 seasons.

This wasn't supposed to pop up in this storm, but here it is....

I understand why to "bow tie", or remove top and bottom growing needles to better allow light into the tree.

But I understand better why I can't bring myself to do it...
And likely never will.

The "system".
In that Scots video with Ryan Neil, he talks about the tree being a system. Leaving branches on to support the system. This branch feeds the roots which in turn feed that part of the tree which we intend to keep etc.

So in an effort to bonsai with all the energy possible...

Why not just leave all them needles and uneccesary buds on till these obvious 2 action times?

I personally don't have any areas that would benefit any other part of the tree if I removed them.
And none of them are causing knuckles.....

So I say again...and again and again....

Don't Mindlessly remove up and down growth.

ATTENTION TO DETAIL.

We got these newbs removing up and down growth like it's the God Damn plague!

The fact that a Mugo branch can be twisted to make up and down growth side by side growth is just one fact that says we may have had a better branch pattern had we not removed all those options.

I can not be the only perfectionist, who knows perfect doesn't exist, but decides to give it a go anyway.

Oh...what I'm trying to say is....
We are not allowing these single flush pines to make it all the way thru these 2 seasons on old needles and one flush of growth with their natural maximum energy.

Especially if we are Always removing needles that don't necessarily need removal, AND cutting off all the new growth in July which is one to two months too early, and seemingly a uneccesary stressor.

Again, I haven't figured this heavier spring cut thing fully yet, but I am working on coming up with some solid observations to continue perfecting these trees I love so much.

Maybe give em a summer action rest, to hit em hard in spring.
Maybe not removing needles and waiting till the last minute to perform summer action will give them enough energy to hit em hard in spring.

What is fact...
In nature they have enough energy for these twice yearly damages.
And we have been removing more energy than necessary.

This is why There IS MORE!

Not to mention when I first got that Pugo Mine, I figured it was gonna take way longer to make into a tree...
But in gathering information from every angle...
And applying it, that tree is shaping up faster than I ever expected.

I still feel like a dick for suggesting Vance may have flaws.
Flaws defined as, just general bad old school bonsai practices he was unable to shake while being a Mugo badass!

Anyway, in feeling bad, I thought about how I shouldn't feel bad.
Cuz when Vance got to talking about a new understanding of wiring, I got mad excited that we may get to view his trees might get that much doper!
Hoping you folks knew I wasn't provoking Ill attitude, or young buck disrespect, I realized that if I can provoke Lord Mugo with thought as to become Mugo Overlord...

I'm like fuck it...keep typing!

To Vance !

To Mugo !

To baseball.....

Sorce

Lol! I'm at baseball!
Skipped the 5$ parking this morning and hoofed it...went for lunch and the parking $ dude left! Karma!
Plus Ordered a beef burrito and got chicken...so got a free burrito...
In Indiana!
La Quesadilla off 65 and 109th.
Good people.

Anyway....that threefer image is what I was telling dude about his going trident or however I said it...

This a very real observable "non-hooey" event that takes place wether or not we are observing.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

First, thanks for the recap on what I believe Vance has been saying. The reasoning behind the timing and ques too look for really help as well.

When you talk about Bud Reinforcement, am I understanding correctly that this can be visually seen, ie swelling of buds?

Could this happen much earlier in the year if a tree were moved from low light / low fertilizer to better growing conditions?

View attachment 193970

This photo is what we are speaking about....

This bud signals the end of the natural One flush of needles you are getting this year.

Sorce

 

[Vance Wood]

Sorry if I was not clear in my question. After the spring flush (while waiting for July to work on a nursery stock Mugo) it seemed like the buds on the tips of the new growth were starting to swell a small amount. I wasn't sure if this is normal at this time of the year.

As far as the terminology, I saw it in this thread and just thought it referred to the forming / developing of buds. I did not know it wasn't commonly used.

Now I understand the question you are asking. First of all I think a couple of you are over thinking this. The new buds once they start to form will, if healthy and viable, will swell but not break and grow like in spring making candles then shoots. Sometimes Mugos will do this, the reason is not known yet to me but I guess if you know how to deal with it what does it matter? As the year progresses and it become apparent that the end of this branch is only going to have one bud and a disappointing spring extension, making one candle and no ramification. What I do is in the beginning of August I take a pair of tweezers, I grasp the bud at the base and with a flick of the wrist I snap the bud off. If you do this correctly the bud will be removed cleanly and in a couple of weeks several new buds will form where you plucked out the one.

 

[SnowfallenGarden]

I grabbed a mugo from lowes, its actually separated at soil level and I seen there was actually 2 trees, I don't know when to repot yet cause I'm starting a documentation process typing up all the notes I think I need, also keeping track of every thing I do so if something happens, I know what had been done recently so I can better ail to the tree if necessary.

One of them I'm training into a twisty style type dealy. The other one I'm training into a geometric type cascade style. the branches aren't long enough to actually get a really good idea of the exact type of shape that I'm going to style the cascade into but you might see what I'm doing and I'm pretty excited about that one.

 

[SnowfallenGarden]

These are the same pics with like a Semi outline with arrows pointing in the growing direction of the cascade, just trying to give a better idea of what Im looking at.
The cascade might not seem very cool right now, but once it gets some length to it, I will like it a lot. I think its a cool idea

 

[DirkvanDreven]

My big mugo is doing well. last winter all branches were set in place with guy wires. It's beginning to look great!

 

[Bonsai901]

My big mugo is doing well. last winter all branches were set in place with guy wires. It's beginning to look great!

View attachment 194709

Looking great!

 

[Cosmos]

Just picked up this bad boy. It wasn't the cheapest, but it was the only one with that type of thickness and taper. Now, that canopy.... I have no idea where to start, so dense and uniform. Guess I'll go read that compiled guide by Vance Wood.

 

[Vance Wood]

Much potential but your tree is much more than a trunk and a pot. This is like a photo of a beautiful woman showing only her butt.

 

[Cosmos]

Much potential but your tree is much more than a trunk and a pot. This is like a photo of a beautiful woman showing only her butt.

Here are some more:

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/thick-trunk-nursery-mugo-reduction-tips.34091/

 

[coltranem]

I am finally getting my ticket punched on the Mugo train. I have been scanning nurseries the last two months. The higher end nurseries have "slowmound" and "valley cushion". They are fairly pricy and dont seem to have much girth just a lot of low skinny branches which is I think is the point of these varieties.

However after multiple trips to various Lowes I found a nice "pumillio". Finally. They also had some smaller "var mughus" I might pick up one to let it grow out. Here seems to be the case where the "cheap" varieties are what we want.

 

[Vance Wood]

Just approach the tree as a relationship not as a project. You need to see the possibilities in the tree and try to bring the bonsai out not try to impose a bonsai on the tree. Too often I see people when faced with trees like these say things like I think I am going to make a Windswept or a cascade or a formal upright. Mugos by nature are capable of doing all sorts of Yamadoriish things other pines have to be forced into by circumstances, Mugos seem to go there with odd shapes and the like, by themselves. Look for tendencies. Tendencies like branch forms, trunk profiles, nebari exposures, and path ways to taper and pleasing assembly.

 

[coltranem]

I cleaned out some weak branches to get a better look. Based on the Mugo Guide it still seems a little early to do major work but now i can start pondering the initial design.

I have two potential fronts.

I am leaning towards the second picture.

My first thought was a double trunk using the central and right. Or maybe just sticking with the right as the single trunk.

 

[VAFisher]

2 year progression. Not great, but it's getting a little better.

June 2016


June 2017


June 2018