An embarrassing question on lifespan of trees (cuttings)

Brad in GR

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This may be an incredibly dumb question, but I'd like to ask it anyway.

Prompted by my learning that Amur Maple only have a lifespan of ~60 years - if a cutting is taken from an Amur maple, does the lifespan "reset"? As in, while the mother tree is already on her way to 60 years and eventual expiration, the cutting has its own lifespan that 're-starts the clock'... correct? Argh.
 

PA_Penjing

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not a dumb question, I used to wonder that too. Then one day I realized that many japanese maple cultivars are hundreds of years old. Meaning that, it almost definitely restarts the clock. Oh I should mention that JM aren't super long lived trees. I think 100 years is pretty darn old for one
 

Dav4

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When I was in college, I spent the summer interning at the Arnold Arboretum is Boston. One of my weekly tasks was to take cuttings from certain specimens in the collection. The trees targeted for for this procedure were typically moving toward the end of the lifespan for the species and/or cultivar and the hope was to strike cuttings to eventually replace the parent tree. It wouldn't make sense to collect cuttings from, say, an ancient viburnum, knowing that the subsequent cutting produced viburnum would essentially last as only long as the actual viburnum it came from. Cuttings are typically made from plant tissue that is only 1-2 years old, and this is essentially the age of any subsequent plants that are produced by them, and you can expect them to have a typical lifespan for that given specie/cultivar.
 

leatherback

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The maximum age is normally not programmes in the cells. It is a function of the pressure of fungi, roots growing ever further from the trunk, the tree-canopy growing ever heavier and the trunk weaknening due to damage etcetc.
As such, your cutting resets the clock, so to speak
 

Brad in GR

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When I was in college, I spent the summer interning at the Arnold Arboretum is Boston. One of my weekly tasks was to take cuttings from certain specimens in the collection. The trees targeted for for this procedure were typically moving toward the end of the lifespan for the species and/or cultivar and the hope was to strike cuttings to eventually replace the parent tree. It wouldn't make sense to collect cuttings from, say, an ancient viburnum, knowing that the subsequent cutting produced viburnum would essentially last as only long as the actual viburnum it came from. Cuttings are typically made from plant tissue that is only 1-2 years old, and this is essentially the age of any subsequent plants that are produced by them, and you can expect them to have a typical lifespan for that given specie/cultivar.
Fantastic explanation, many thanks! Sounds like a cool experience you had there as well. Makes sense re: the cuttings material only being a few years old as well.
 

Bnana

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Most animals (including us) have telomeres on there chromosomes that shorten whith cell divisions. Plants don't have this. Trees that can grow new trunks from its roots can live forever by replacing its trunk and rejuvenating.
 

AlainK

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The maximum age is normally not programmed in the cells
Trees that can grow new trunks from its roots can live forever by replacing its trunk and rejuvenating.

That's why a well-tended bonsai is in theory immortal : trees die because in nature, they have to face wounds (wind, snow,...) pests and fungi. The state of the roots too is essential. no time to develop, but root-trimming and renewing the growing medium is a way of rejuvenating an essential part of a tree.

See the story of the 200 yr-old Turner's oak (from 1'35") :

Trust science, learn, and learn to have a critical mind. It begins with bonsai growing, but can apply to many other statements one can read on Twitter.

And by the way, just heard that, according to a poll, 8% of French people believe that the earth is flat ! :rolleyes:

Some even think that the earth was created in 7 days and Adam and Eve would go out on a week-end riding dinosaurs 😅... :(:(:(:(:(
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@Brad in GR
Combine the 3 answers from @leatherback , @Dav4 , @Bnana and the factual observation from @PA_Penjing and you have a nearly complete explanation of longevity in trees.

Trees have no fixed life spans.

Most of the tables that list longevity, the longevity is listed relevant to a PURPOSE. In other words, the tree does not drop dead at a date certain, the tables usually mean that for a given purpose the tree is unlikely to serve its function after a certain age.

For example, red oak, Quercus rubra in a forestry text might be listed as having a lifespan of 75 years. But you need to read how the forestry text is using lifespan. In the case of timber management, it is the point in time that an entire STAND of trees, a certain percentage will have begun to develop heartwood rots. I believe the number to be 25% but its been a while since I read a forestry text. So in other words, if you plan on harvesting the stand of red oaks, do it before 75 years, because after 75 years on the average your board feet yield of dimensional lumber will begin to decline.

Landscape architecture texts will say a tree like Amur maple has a longevity of 60 years, or a Albizia might have a span of 30 years. This is the time the tree can be expected to "look attractive" and remain in its space allotted. After that period, one can expect mechanical damage and disease issues will have accumulated to the point that the tree is no longer attractive. Not dead. Just no longer attractive for the purpose of landscape architecture.
 

Brad in GR

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@Brad in GR
Combine the 3 answers from @leatherback , @Dav4 , @Bnana and the factual observation from @PA_Penjing and you have a nearly complete explanation of longevity in trees.

Trees have no fixed life spans.

Most of the tables that list longevity, the longevity is listed relevant to a PURPOSE. In other words, the tree does not drop dead at a date certain, the tables usually mean that for a given purpose the tree is unlikely to serve its function after a certain age.

For example, red oak, Quercus rubra in a forestry text might be listed as having a lifespan of 75 years. But you need to read how the forestry text is using lifespan. In the case of timber management, it is the point in time that an entire STAND of trees, a certain percentage will have begun to develop heartwood rots. I believe the number to be 25% but its been a while since I read a forestry text. So in other words, if you plan on harvesting the stand of red oaks, do it before 75 years, because after 75 years on the average your board feet yield of dimensional lumber will begin to decline.

Landscape architecture texts will say a tree like Amur maple has a longevity of 60 years, or a Albizia might have a span of 30 years. This is the time the tree can be expected to "look attractive" and remain in its space allotted. After that period, one can expect mechanical damage and disease issues will have accumulated to the point that the tree is no longer attractive. Not dead. Just no longer attractive for the purpose of landscape architecture.
Thanks Leo, was hoping you’d chime in!
 

Brad in GR

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That's why a well-tended bonsai is in theory immortal : trees die because in nature, they have to face wounds (wind, snow,...) pests and fungi. The state of the roots too is essential. no time to develop, but root-trimming and renewing the growing medium is a way of rejuvenating an essential part of a tree.

See the story of the 200 yr-old Turner's oak (from 1'35") :

Trust science, learn, and learn to have a critical mind. It begins with bonsai growing, but can apply to many other statements one can read on Twitter.

And by the way, just heard that, according to a poll, 8% of French people believe that the earth is flat ! :rolleyes:

Some even think that the earth was created in 7 days and Adam and Eve would go out on a week-end riding dinosaurs 😅... :(:(:(:(:(
The Turner Oak. Wow. Thank you for sharing!

Reminds me a bit of my favorite oak on the golf course where I play frequently:

DBB8121E-76F1-48FA-A36B-905DCD55B924.jpegAEF75A78-ACB8-4463-8AD9-2D99063B124F.jpeg
 

hinmo24t

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they live until the great creator intends for them to @AlainK

(im not religious, maybe 1-5%, just throwing it out there because id be offended if i was)




isnt there a scientific name for plants being able to live indefinitely? starts with an E maybe?
 

AJL

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Yeah a diseased and dying tree can live for centuries..... they just compartmentalise and carry on growing!
here is an example.
1603827624699.png
 

Dkdhej

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When I was in college, I spent the summer interning at the Arnold Arboretum is Boston. One of my weekly tasks was to take cuttings from certain specimens in the collection. The trees targeted for for this procedure were typically moving toward the end of the lifespan for the species and/or cultivar and the hope was to strike cuttings to eventually replace the parent tree. It wouldn't make sense to collect cuttings from, say, an ancient viburnum, knowing that the subsequent cutting produced viburnum would essentially last as only long as the actual viburnum it came from. Cuttings are typically made from plant tissue that is only 1-2 years old, and this is essentially the age of any subsequent plants that are produced by them, and you can expect them to have a typical lifespan for that given specie/cultivar.
Does this explain why some cuttings flower the very same year you plant them?
Because instead of young tissue, they were done with mature tissue?
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Does this explain why some cuttings flower the very same year you plant them?
Because instead of young tissue, they were done with mature tissue?

There is aging of plant cell lines, or tissues.

In plants for example the extremely ancient trees like Pando the quaking aspen, estimated I believe at over 12,000 years old. At some point the plant cell line deteriorates, or accumulates errors in replicating the DNA to the point where the organism is no longer able to form viable seed and or viable pollen. Various estimates, if memory serves me right are that somewhere around 7000 years a cell line (either as a single tree, for example bristlecone pine, or as a colonial organisms, for example 'Pando') will cease to be able to sexually reproduce. Meaning seed and pollen will slowly cease to produce viable offspring. It is the accumulation of DNA replication errors and accumulation of epigenetic gene blocking errors. The point at which a clone like 'Pando' becomes unable to reproduce sexually as its "functional extinction", even though the organism itself may continue to live for a few more thousand years. Essentially analogous to the post menopausal lifespan of mammals.

I might be off a millennium or two as to the timing for when this failure of meiosis occurs, but the general idea is that there is indeed a limit, or a slow decline in the reproductive capacity of plant cell lines.

Cuttings taken from 'Pando', or (if it were possible) from an ancient bristlecone pine would not recover the ability to produce viable seed and pollen. They would show a juvenile pattern of vegetative growth, but indeed the advanced extreme age of the cell line would prohibit viable seed formation. Remember 'Pando' is a quaking aspen, no living part of the tree is older than maybe 120 years, the old wood rots away. But the new vegetative shoots from its root system keep on growing. It forms and ever expanding circle of aspen trees. The cell lines, all are from one single seed that germinated some 12,000 years ago. Similar observations have been made with creosote bushes and other shrubs that spread by rhizomes and root suckers.

In vascular plants, being perpetually embryonic is possible for the first half dozen milenia, but somewhere after 6 ot 7 thousand years the damage to the DNA of the cell lines eventually build up. But even so, the plant can continue for several thousand more years as a post-reproductive individual.

So in terms of a human lifespan, there is no limit.
 
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leatherback

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And by the way, just heard that, according to a poll, 8% of French people believe that the earth is flat ! :rolleyes:

Some even think that the earth was created in 7 days and Adam and Eve would go out on a week-end riding dinosaurs
What do you mean to say? Those are facts of life.
 

cmeg1

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Ok ,yea✌️
So maybe 59.7 year lifespan now😆
Honestly with ccuttings is excellent chance to give better care of tree with much more calcium........may last twice as old.
At first thought I said well ground tap root is a plus in many many ways,but after reconsidering.....maybe a 1000 times more calcium and excellent nitrition( if correct) would greatly enhance longevity.Essentially just the calcium uptake could do this with amino acids( choice tech grade ones) and boost trees circulation incredibly.......1000 times more calcium is EXTREMELY efficient in doing so.
 

Dkdhej

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There is aging of plant cell lines, or tissues.

In plants for example the extremely ancient trees like Pando the quaking aspen, estimated I believe at over 12,000 years old. At some point the plant cell line deteriorates, or accumulates errors in replicating the DNA to the point where the organism is no longer able to form viable seed and or viable pollen. Various estimates, if memory serves me right are that somewhere around 7000 years a cell line (either as a single tree, for example bristlecone pine, or as a colonial organisms, for example 'Pando') will cease to be able to sexually reproduce. Meaning seed and pollen will slowly cease to produce viable offspring. It is the accumulation of DNA replication errors and accumulation of epigenetic gene blocking errors. The point at which a clone like 'Pando' becomes unable to reproduce sexually as its "functional extinction", even though the organism itself may continue to live for a few more thousand years. Essentially analogous to the post menopausal lifespan of mammals.

I might be off a millennium or two as to the timing for when this failure of meiosis occurs, but the general idea is that there is indeed a limit, or a slow decline in the reproductive capacity of plant cell lines.

Cuttings taken from 'Pando', or (if it were possible) from an ancient bristlecone pine would not recover the ability to produce viable seed and pollen. They would show a juvenile pattern of vegetative growth, but indeed the advanced extreme age of the cell line would prohibit viable seed formation. Remember 'Pando' is a quaking aspen, no living part of the tree is older than maybe 120 years, the old wood rots away. But the new vegetative shoots from its root system keep on growing. It forms and ever expanding circle of aspen trees. The cell lines, all are from one single seed that germinated some 12,000 years ago. Similar observations have been made with creosote bushes and other shrubs that spread by rhizomes and root suckers.

In vascular plants, being perpetually embryonic is possible for the first half dozen milenia, but somewhere after 6 ot 7 thousand years the damage to the DNA of the cell lines eventually build up. But even so, the plant can continue for several thousand more years as a post-reproductive individual.

So in terms of a human lifespan, there is no limit.
Thanks, that was just owesome.
Nature is fascinanting, even more with such great explanations.
Thanks again.
 

Harunobu

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Mutations always accumulate at a certain rate. Whether there is sexual reproduction in between them does not really matter. What matters is what type of selection these mutations are subjected to. The tissues in different parts of an ancient clonal plants like Pando could have very different accumulation of mutations. And mutations in cells that limit growth will go extinct. So there is a selection for mutations that help that individual plant get ancient.

But many mechanisms have no selection pressure on them. If a mutation occurs that interferes or completely inhibits proper sexual reproduction, then these tissues will continue growing fine. The fact that such an ancient plant went sterile does not affect that individual plant. Likely, it already reproduced sexually in the past, passing on it's genes. So when propagating a certain cultivar for several centuries should not harm plant vigor. The failure or success of the propagation attempts will filter out or select for certain mutations. I wonder though if ancient cultivars propagated for a very long time could lose vigor through other ways. Yes, a plant ages with time, and age can make it susceptible to disease and lead to death. But the question is if a healthy shoot from such an old and dying plant is less vigorous than the original was many decades or centuries ago, after asexually propagating that shoot. Do the mechanisms by which animal cells are aging also exist in plants? It is hard to compare plants with animals because they are so different. Could plants be considered practically immortal? And when discussing aging in human cell lines, it seems many human cell lines are immortal as well (for example HeLa or HEK). But in these cell lines, specific functions which cannot be selected for are lost. So maybe aging is more of a tissue or organism issue than a cell issue? Yeah, I know telomeres and stuff. How do they shorten in HeLa cell lines? And animal cells in hydra or anemones are also often considered to be 'immortal'. I barely took any cell biology and forgot most of it, I am sure.

I have two very old azalea cultivars, 'Kozan' and 'Matsunami'. Both maybe 100, 200 or maybe 300 years old and asexually reproduced all that time. They are indeed among my most sterile plants. But I wonder if this is the accumulation of mutations, because in that case using an old cultivar with sterility issues as a parent would result in the same problem in the offspring. And that doesn't seem to be the case in the small sample size I have.
 
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