Anyone own or have pics of a shohin spruce?

october

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I am talking about a certain style shohin. One that is simiar to the small black pine, twisted trunk shimpaku or maples. I was thinking that you see many stout and short beautiful shohin, pines, junipers, maples, olive etc.. However, I can't recall any yamadori or a kind of sumo shohin style spruce of any kind. I would be highly interested in seeing one.

Thanks in advance

Rob
 

Dan W.

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I have only seen one. But sadly I didn't take a picture. Harold Sasaki has it in Denver CO at Colorado Bonsai. I don't remember who it was collected by, but it was nice! The tree alone was no more than 4"-5" tall and was perfectly tapered with a FAT trunk. I can take pics this summer if it's still there but it won't be until June at the ABS convention. If you're interested; I think he was asking around the $1,000 ballpark, and he seemed reluctant to part with it.
 

october

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Thank you very much.. Yes, I would love to see pics of it, even if I have to wait until June. Also, $1000 is out of my price range..If I came across a good one or even rougt stock material, I definitely would consider purchasing it if it had potential and the right price.

Rob
 

ghues

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Hi Rob,
Not a twisted or even a Sumo Shohin but a Sitka Spruce shohin on a limestone boulder from a friends garden taken this weekend. The scene created captures the ensense of the west coast of Vancouver Island.
Its just over 10 inches and needs some styling work.
Cheers
Graham
 

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Vance Wood

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Some really beautiful and expensive material. If I had the money I'd have one of these guys.
 

Vance Wood

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How does one assign a 300 year age to a collected spruce like that? I'm curious what method yields the most accurate results.

http://www.coloradobonsai.com/0502Front.jpg

This is a problem I have with age setting as well. It is almost impossible to know how old a tree is without killing it and counting the rings. Some claim to have autopsied some dead trees in the same area of the same size and come up with that answer. Sometimes the character of the bark can give you a clue. In the example of White Bark Pine, in my readings about this tree it has been said that it has to be 200 years old before it produces cones. Assuming this figure to be correct, and I question it too if you are not, if you encounter one of these trees with cones on it, it must be 200 years old.

I have a collected Larch that I estimate to be about 150 years old. I dug it from Northern Michigan in the 80's. It was a root sucker that had sprung up from an older tree cut down when most of the Northern forests were harvested 125 years earlier. So I have a time line that is more or less confirmed by history and location. Is this figure accurate? Probably pretty close but again without destroying the tree it is impossible to tell for sure.

However; in the case of Yamadori you have to consider the conditions that cause them to form in the first place; poor soil, high altitude, severe winters, avalanches, animal browsing, lightning strikes, limited seasons, and so on, the list can be as long as your ability to come up with things to put on it. I do not mean to be criticizing Colorado Bonsai, their methods are probably pretty accurate but it is at best an educated guess. Even tree rings are not totally accurate. In good years a tree can produce two sets of rings, in bad years they can produce none that are discernible short of a microscopic inspection. Here again I do not wish to call Colorado Bonsai into question. When dealing with people who are in this as a business you will find that sometimes, some dealers tend to inflate age estimates because Americans tend to spend more money for older trees. You will find this a lot on Ebay, local bonsai nurseries, and road side vendors.

From what I understand Colorado Bonsai has a good reputation and I am certain that they would not purposely inflate the age of their material just to sell it and charge more money. Harvesting trees is a difficult and demanding process and they deserve credit for making a career of it. They have to deal with bad roads, long climbs up mountain sides, rattle snakes, bears, Big Foot??, and pesky rangers with attitude. Then they have to hump out their harvest by hand. This is not easy at 5000 ft or better, and the older I get the more aware of this I become.
 

rockm

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Like Vance said, reputable collectors use a variety of methods to get an age for their trees. Tree rings, examining neighboring trees--looking for deadfall,etc. It's a guess, but it's usually an educated guess. Some species, like ponderosa, can have distinct age age markers that don't require killing the tree. Ponderosa, from what I understand, accrete needle shield rings on branches on a regular basis --one ring per year. Count the needle shields on a branch and you can get a pretty good idea of a given tree's age. I don't know if there's a similar indicator for spruce, but there may be...

I collect deciduous species here in the east and it's usually pretty easy to get an age--at trunk chop time--by counting the growth rings. Even then, however, you're usually not cutting through the oldest part of the tree--the nebari.

I've found that tree age can be a hugely deceptive thing if you look only at the tree as a unit. Very old trees can look young and younger trees can look ancient, depending on environment. I've also found that most trees are a lot older than they look. I dug a four inch diameter Cedar Elm once that I thought was maybe 20 at the most. It had over 80 growth rings...
 
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Ang3lfir3

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How does one assign a 300 year age to a collected spruce like that? I'm curious what method yields the most accurate results.

http://www.coloradobonsai.com/0502Front.jpg

its actually a really easy process once you think about it... I'll give you the basics and in the easiest case using something like Ponderosa pine..

Ponderosa has terminal bud scale scars... each one representing a growth year.... measure the number on a branch.... measure its thickness... extrapolate that to the width of the tree at its base... this gives you a pretty general ball park idea of the age of a tree..... when a tree is a few hundred years old (some of my junipers are close to 3-400 or more) do you really care is you are off by a 50yrs or so??

once you know the growth rate of a tree you can use that to give you an idea of trees from the same area.... they will all approx grow at the same rate....

again... its an educated guess... but its a well educated guess...
 

Attila Soos

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its actually a really easy process once you think about it... I'll give you the basics and in the easiest case using something like Ponderosa pine..

Ponderosa has terminal bud scale scars... each one representing a growth year.... measure the number on a branch.... measure its thickness... extrapolate that to the width of the tree at its base... this gives you a pretty general ball park idea of the age of a tree..... when a tree is a few hundred years old (some of my junipers are close to 3-400 or more) do you really care is you are off by a 50yrs or so??

once you know the growth rate of a tree you can use that to give you an idea of trees from the same area.... they will all approx grow at the same rate....

again... its an educated guess... but its a well educated guess...

I agree, in case of conifers, it is a very easy process to get an educated guess.
When you collect a tree, there are plenty of branches that you need to cut off. You choose the thickest one, and the closest one to the base, and you count the rings. If you count 130 of those, you know that the tree is AT LEAST 130 yrs old. Then you extrapolate that, comparing the thickness of the lower trunk to the thickness of the branch that you just dated. The result is that you have a range of estimates, with a low number and a high one. You will say, that the age is estimated to be between 130 and 160 years-old. An educated guess such as this, is accurate enough for any serious enthusiast. Nobody expects you to nail it down to the exact year.

When I lived in Vancouver, I've done this with collected hemlocks and sitka spruce. I remember counting around 80 rings on a hemlock that was as thick as my index finger. Also, I dated a sitka spruce that I collected from the island (later stolen). The spruce had a low branch with about 120 rings, one third as thick as the main trunk. This would point to an age at least 300 years-old.

When documenting age, the most important thing for me is that that the person doing it, should show the 1)evidence and 2)the logic behind the estimate. As you said, knowing the area where the tree was collected, is also very helpful.
 
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berobinson82

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Thanks to all who answered. I hope you understand that I was not doubting Colorado Bonsai; just eager to learn from the educated masses on this board.
 

Attila Soos

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What a great source of outstanding material. I wasn't aware of this vendor. The prices look pretty reasonable, and I am sure that they are flexible when it comes to cutting a deal with serious buyers. When you have such a variety of material, it is inevitable that you are willing to negotiate.
 

october

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Thanks rockm..Yes, most of them are exactly what I am talking about. Especially the real short ones. It is too bad it is out of my price range. I cannot just give out $2500 plus shipping. This has become a very informative thread.:D

Rob
 

Attila Soos

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Thanks rockm..Yes, most of them are exactly what I am talking about. Especially the real short ones. It is too bad it is out of my price range. I cannot just give out $2500 plus shipping. This has become a very informative thread.:D

Rob

Well, item# 159 is listed for $350 plus shipping, and looks great to me. It would make an outstanding shohin. There are a few more in that price range.
 

october

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I agree.. I kind of like 0502 though ;)

The site says it has not been updated since 2010. I would probably need to call to find out what is really available.
 
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rockm

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A word of caution...I see a notification on that page that says it hasn't been updated since 2010. I don't know if that's true, but if it is all this stuff is probably gone. Might be worth a call to see if that's so...
 

ghues

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Eric/Attila, FYI
One caution of counting rings on some conifers.............one ring does not necessarily mean one year. It is well known that some conifers experience two growth periods in one year, especially if there was a warm mid summer spell. The trees flushes in the spring into early summer and then starts to set up for dormancy, buds form, it starts to lignify etc….. but an unseasonably warm spell will allow the tree to break the newly formed bud and flush again with a second period of growth. So this can make it difficult to estimate the real age. But like others have said in this post….old is old, ...in my line of work for most conifers we use 120-140 years to rate is as a mature tree, 250 to call it old growth and 500 for ancient :eek:
 
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