Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
It takes a craft to create an art but it takes an art to give a craft something to do that is more than to copy something or someone else.
Art vs Craft
- Thread starter Joe Dupre'
- Start date
Ok. So, let’s say a potter makes a cool new style pot. Never been done before. Everyone loves it. Is that art?
If yes, then what if the potter decides to cash in, and make dozens of those pots. Each identical to the first one. Are those art? Or has it now become craft?
And then, what becomes of the first one? Since it’s been copied, it’s not unique in any way. Has it lost it’s “art” status?
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
If an person is an artist because he says so, am I a Master of bonsai because I say so? The short answer is No. What's the difference between a putterer and a craftsman? The level of quality of output is the deciding factor in almost all endeavors. Level of expertise in any area allows a person to be known to other people for what they really are. You are what other people think you are, and hopefully you live up to that. When you don't, it will be so noted. Calling yourself this or that because you are learning to be this or that doesn't make you this or that.
The word "art" insinuates a level of quality that is better than typical, usually much better and closer to the pinnacle than to the middle. A mudpie made by a child out of the same clay that Mom makes superior bonsai pots worth a lot of money in the marketplace doesn't meet the level of intent or expression to be called "art". IMHO
The word "art" insinuates a level of quality that is better than typical, usually much better and closer to the pinnacle than to the middle. A mudpie made by a child out of the same clay that Mom makes superior bonsai pots worth a lot of money in the marketplace doesn't meet the level of intent or expression to be called "art". IMHO
The most useful definition of art that I’ve come across is one put forth by art critic Jerry Saltz: Art is thought embedded in material.
Bonsai is always craft, but it might also be art in individual cases if its creator is using bonsai as a vehicle for the conveyance of thought. If the work is poorly or sublimely executed, conveying thought that is boring and derivative or fascinating, novel, and insightful, that might make it bad art or good art. However, the question, “Is it art?” is orthogonal to the considerations of whether or not the person who made it is skilled in bonsai craftsmanship. Are you embedding thought in your bonsai? If so, it’s art. If it doesn’t say anything, it’s not art.
Bonsai is always craft, but it might also be art in individual cases if its creator is using bonsai as a vehicle for the conveyance of thought. If the work is poorly or sublimely executed, conveying thought that is boring and derivative or fascinating, novel, and insightful, that might make it bad art or good art. However, the question, “Is it art?” is orthogonal to the considerations of whether or not the person who made it is skilled in bonsai craftsmanship. Are you embedding thought in your bonsai? If so, it’s art. If it doesn’t say anything, it’s not art.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
TyroTinker
Shohin
What qualifications do you use for rate quality? This definition sounds good but is fundamentally flawed.
For example a bonsai pot, do you rate quality because the pot will last 1,000 years? Or because a majority of the current population likes the shape, or glaze, or both? Or maybe it is highly functional compared to others in someway? How about if it was commissioned for a specific tree, is it quality because it fits the tree in the absolute best possible way? In all seasons? Or maybe just the season that it will be shown next? Best pot for the health of the tree? Or it best matches the exact specifications the buyer described? Or it is different then the buyer described but is closer to what they want because the maker of the pot made choices the buyer didn’t know/think of?
The list can go on for as long as someone has the imagination for. I don’t want to sound rude but the long list was the ‘best’ way I could describe the issue.
This is the problem with all of the answers I have heard that seem to be closest to describing art vs craft accurately (to me) there is just one phrase or word that doesn’t sit right and if looked at closer leaves the definition open for interpretation.
I don’t have the answer and maybe there isn’t one. I believe that is a possibility that is often overlooked in discussions like this...
@Forsoothe! I didn’t want to tear into your definition specifically over someone else’s but you were the last to post when I had time/ was able to put my finger on what was bugging me with a lot of these attempts to define a difference between these two things. No hard feelings I swear
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
The Japanese have a word; Kami, meaning a spiritual quality that endues something with a quality that is more or less unfathomable and cannot be added to it or extracted from it.What qualifications do you use for rate quality? This definition sounds good but is fundamentally flawed.
For example a bonsai pot, do you rate quality because the pot will last 1,000 years? Or because a majority of the current population likes the shape, or glaze, or both? Or maybe it is highly functional compared to others in someway? How about if it was commissioned for a specific tree, is it quality because it fits the tree in the absolute best possible way? In all seasons? Or maybe just the season that it will be shown next? Best pot for the health of the tree? Or it best matches the exact specifications the buyer described? Or it is different then the buyer described but is closer to what they want because the maker of the pot made choices the buyer didn’t know/think of?
The list can go on for as long as someone has the imagination for. I don’t want to sound rude but the long list was the ‘best’ way I could describe the issue.
This is the problem with all of the answers I have heard that seem to be closest to describing art vs craft accurately (to me) there is just one phrase or word that doesn’t sit right and if looked at closer leaves the definition open for interpretation.
I don’t have the answer and maybe there isn’t one. I believe that is a possibility that is often overlooked in discussions like this...
@Forsoothe! I didn’t want to tear into your definition specifically over someone else’s but you were the last to post when I had time/ was able to put my finger on what was bugging me with a lot of these attempts to define a difference between these two things. No hard feelings I swear
I don't believe that for a second. People say all kinds of crap. For example, some might make an informal upright pine and say they are doing art when in fact they are verbally masturbating.
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My take.....
*Art is a unique expression.
*Craft is not.
*Therefore bonsai is not art. (but in theory, some aspects of it could be)
*That does not mean all art is good. Much of it is crap.
*Craft can have infinitely more aesthetic value than art.
*Art is a unique expression.
*Craft is not.
*Therefore bonsai is not art. (but in theory, some aspects of it could be)
*That does not mean all art is good. Much of it is crap.
*Craft can have infinitely more aesthetic value than art.
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
I believe the test of time can answer the question for the most part, but there is ephemeral art that I have seen and created (as a sound engineer and lighting designer) and been a part of that is also something that I view as art. Art is emotional and moves your soul. I think it can be different things to different people, and I'm cool with that.
Maloghurst
Chumono
Picasso said “good artists copy, great artists steal!”
Maloghurst
Chumono
Some of you think that to be called an artist is some kind of enlightened state of being. It’s not the same as calling yourself a master painter or master sculptor or bonsai master. Art is just art. No big deal. Creativity and imagination is used to create art. Craft is in the wiring and maintenance. Attention to detail, methodical care.
Art imitates life. So what is bonsai if not imitating life?
Exactly the same as a sculptor or painter of the human form or trees.
If a painter paints a tree is it art? Of course it is.
Sometimes terrible art and some people go down in history as truly special.
But history doesn’t make someone is an artist.
I’m enjoying this discussion.
Art imitates life. So what is bonsai if not imitating life?
Exactly the same as a sculptor or painter of the human form or trees.
If a painter paints a tree is it art? Of course it is.
Sometimes terrible art and some people go down in history as truly special.
But history doesn’t make someone is an artist.
I’m enjoying this discussion.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Humble apologies Sifu [ Adair ]
Not biting .
No winter blah, blahs down here.
Good Day
Anthony
Not biting .
No winter blah, blahs down here.
Good Day
Anthony
Bolero
Omono
Lets think of it this way....If your work (lets say on a Bonsai Tree Landscape) involves your personal Creativity and Craftsmanship and thus enjoyed, appreciated, emotionally experienced by others then it can be considered Art...
The key determinants here, to be considered Art, are Creativity mixed and Displayed with your Craftsmanship...
DiVinci's Mona Lisa ,,,,,,,,,,,,.. he used a model to capture his size, form, scale.....he used his remarkable Creativity to show
the eyes, the smile, the background, the coloring, etc, etc, and he accomplished this over a 5 year period…...
The key determinants here, to be considered Art, are Creativity mixed and Displayed with your Craftsmanship...
DiVinci's Mona Lisa ,,,,,,,,,,,,.. he used a model to capture his size, form, scale.....he used his remarkable Creativity to show
the eyes, the smile, the background, the coloring, etc, etc, and he accomplished this over a 5 year period…...
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
As frame is to painting,
so pot is to tree.
You want folk to look at your tree, not the pot.
So the pot will always be simple in design.
[ hence no art or craft debates ]
Paintings can contain a lot of red and yellow [ bright ]
plus action from the figures or landscape.
The frame can carry a lot of carved gold decoration,
but you will naturally look at the painting.
Trees are much quieter and more restrained, even white
wood based designs,
Good Day
Anthony
so pot is to tree.
You want folk to look at your tree, not the pot.
So the pot will always be simple in design.
[ hence no art or craft debates ]
Paintings can contain a lot of red and yellow [ bright ]
plus action from the figures or landscape.
The frame can carry a lot of carved gold decoration,
but you will naturally look at the painting.
Trees are much quieter and more restrained, even white
wood based designs,
Good Day
Anthony
Bolero
Omono
When does Bonsai Gardening on a Specific Tree transform the tree into a work of Art ????
Please review this Link to see examples of work way beyond just growing a Bonsai Tree...
valavanisbonsaiblog.com
Please review this Link to see examples of work way beyond just growing a Bonsai Tree...
A Visit To Saitama Prefecture
Our first day of touring the Japanese bonsai world included Mr. Morimae, Mr. Kimura, Omiya Bonsai Art Museum and the Omiya Bonsai Art Museum. Seiji Morimae’s S-Cube business and Uchiku-tei G…
valavanisbonsaiblog.com
ABCarve
Masterpiece
I’ll stand by my definition. What’s being discussed here is “the politics of art “. It is the tension between consumers, makers, and institutions of what will be. I wrote “artist “ on my tax return for 6 years. Does that make me an artist? History will be the final arbiter. My advice.... less talk, more action! Go buy it, make it and advocate for it. Embrace the paradox.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
When someone first enters an art atelier, they have
to be trained in how to respond tto Modernism B.S
so for example - talk a painting
Person is encouraged to think and discuss.
The Gammell Art Ateliers teach the craft of painting and
the training of the mind in memory, observation and drawn
notes from nature etc.
Also hand mulling / tubing of painting, proper preparation of
panels, canvas [ paint supports ]
K explaining Anthony's previous posts.
On our side, the original ideas of Ancient Chinese Scholars
are followed. Bonsai was for mental relaxation and mental
inspiration. so concepts of art or craft do not apply.
A Chinese scholar was trained in Ink Painting, Prose, Poetry
and other refinements.
It is doubtful that growing a tree would replace the above
mentioned.
When an Art teacher suspects a student is limited in imagination,
the student is often taught a safe technique.
The Japanese figured out a rote way to design in triangles.
Which works for their society.
It does not work in European countries or with Descendants of Europeans
in the New World ------- change has begun.
Good Day
Anthony
to be trained in how to respond tto Modernism B.S
so for example - talk a painting
Person is encouraged to think and discuss.
The Gammell Art Ateliers teach the craft of painting and
the training of the mind in memory, observation and drawn
notes from nature etc.
Also hand mulling / tubing of painting, proper preparation of
panels, canvas [ paint supports ]
K explaining Anthony's previous posts.
On our side, the original ideas of Ancient Chinese Scholars
are followed. Bonsai was for mental relaxation and mental
inspiration. so concepts of art or craft do not apply.
A Chinese scholar was trained in Ink Painting, Prose, Poetry
and other refinements.
It is doubtful that growing a tree would replace the above
mentioned.
When an Art teacher suspects a student is limited in imagination,
the student is often taught a safe technique.
The Japanese figured out a rote way to design in triangles.
Which works for their society.
It does not work in European countries or with Descendants of Europeans
in the New World ------- change has begun.
Good Day
Anthony
He worked on that painting for more than five years. He carried it around with him during his travels.
Bolero
Omono
xxxx
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