Azuma Japanese White Pine

esteve59

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Here's one for the elders....
Anyone had experience with healing grafts over many years on Japanese White Pine specifically Azuma Japanese White Pine .
Someone is selling this and in the description it reads " It has a very low graft that will completely disappear "
So...I am skeptical..
 

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Walter Pall

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It is a fact that bad looking grafts NEVER disapper, but they get worse all the time. There is a genetic difference in the two varieties that makes them grow at a different pace. This will not go away and the different growth pattern will make the junction worse over time.
 

Mark

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Run, do not walk away from this hideous tree! Not even suitable for a garden tree.

Last week, touring a friends garden, I spotted a stunning Azuma Five needle pine. He had planted it in his garden about 5 years ago and it was about 18" tall. Gorgeous little tree! He is a member of the Conifer Society and bought it at a national event. I was on my hands and knees and it either had an excellent graft or was a seedling. The light was not great as it was dusk and it was quite dense. If you can find a better one it might be fun to work with.

Mark
 

greerhw

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Crap !!!!!

keep it green,
harry
 

Ang3lfir3

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Sadly from the picture I know who is selling it... I have purchased from them before, I have a redwood waiting to be picked up, and they are great... however this graft will not ever go away.... don't discount the dealer entirely from this one tree...

If you want verification of the dealer PM me.. just to make sure the picture is not stolen....
 

mcpesq817

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Isn't this from Wee Tree? They seem to have nice field grown stock, though the prices appeared a bit high this year.
 

esteve59

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I see no reason not to reveal the seller.It is Wee tree.I don't know why they would make a claim like this.
On the other hand they do have a nice web site and pretty good variety of trees.
I have purchased some of their field grown trees and I was impressed with everything about the sale...Good customer service,packing etc...
I do agree though some of their prices seem high to me.
Thanks for all the input...
Steve
 

Walter Pall

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I see no reason not to reveal the seller.It is Wee tree.I don't know why they would make a claim like this.
e

Steve,

I have met many gardeners who don't know this fact about grafts. For them a graft is something good, something that demands extra money.
The majority of bonsaiists probably thinks that ugly grafts would disappear over time. So why not a dealer?
 
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greerhw

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Walter is right of course, they will never improve. The only thing you can do is hide them, either with foliage of bark from another tree. Here is a very old JWP with an very obvious graft, looking straight on, the foilage hides the graft, but look up under the foliage and the graft of course is very visable.

keep it green,
Harry
 

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Vance Wood

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The thing that puzzles me about this tree is the fact that it is grafted at all. The Azuma strain is a natural strain from the Northern prefectures of Japan. There is no need to graft as it produces true to form from seed.
 

Klytus

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Compulsive grafting?

I am considering air layering to get various choice cultivars off their grafts and onto their own roots.

I see grafting is sometimes translated from the German as 'Fast-Foot'.
 

rockm

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This is NOT a low graft. Good low grafts are typically done on the root crown, not on the trunk to minimize any ugly mismatches like this.

As for revealing the seller, why keep it a secret? If someone is a good dealer, they're a good dealer.
 

greerhw

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Here's a Nishiki that was grafted at the root base, you can hardly find it with the naked eye.

keep it green,
Harry
 

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Ang3lfir3

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As for revealing the seller, why keep it a secret? If someone is a good dealer, they're a good dealer.

The only question lay in that the Original Poster did not at first mention the retailer (there was no need to)... I offered to verify that WeeTree is a good dealer and verify that if per chance the Original Poster was seeing this image used on some random ebay auction that it may not have been the actual retailer. (Web images are often stolen from websites and used in fake ebay auctions ).
 

Walter Pall

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Brent Walston has suspected one time that many graftings are made to make money for the nursery that is specialized in grafting.
On the tree market outside bonsai, grafted trees sell for much more than non-grafted ones. As if that was upgrading them per se.
 

rockm

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I'd bet Brent is right. People do not understand exactly what grafting is and what it does.
 

Vance Wood

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I'd bet Brent is right. People do not understand exactly what grafting is and what it does.

Which goes back to my original statement about the Azuma strain. When I first got interested in JWP understanding that I could not get them for love or money I did a lot of research. One article I read made the statement that of the seed sources used to cultivate this tree in Japan the preferred source was the Azuma strain from Northern Japan. The difference between a strain and a cultivar is simple genetics. It is my understanding that the Azuma strain is a stable genetic tree that reproduces accurately from seed, where as Cultivars such as Kokonoe, Zuisho, and a host of others are cultivars that can only be reproduced by cloning; grafts and cuttings where possible. The term Cultivar means that the plant can only exist through the actions of man to reproduce them through artificial methods. This usually means grafting. It is not necessary to graft the Azuma strain, it reproduces itself accurately from seed.
 
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Which goes back to my original statement about the Azuma strain. When I first got interested in JWP understanding that I could not get them for love or money I did a lot of research. One article I read made the statement that of the seed sources used to cultivate this tree in Japan the preferred source was the Azuma strain from Northern Japan. The difference between a strain and a cultivar is simple genetics. It is my understanding that the Azuma strain is a stable genetic tree that reproduces accurately from seed, where as Cultivars such as Kokonoe, Zuisho, and a host of others are cultivars that can only be reproduced by cloning; grafts and cuttings where possible. The term Cultivar means that the plant can only exist through the actions of man to reproduce them through artificial methods. This usually means grafting. It is not necessary to graft the Azuma strain, it reproduces itself accurately from seed.


You may be totally right, Vance I would bet that the grafting is done to improve vigor on what could be considered a slow-growing tree. Or perhaps the seeds don't sprout uniformly. People (other than bonsai enthusiasts) are an impatient lot.
 

Brent

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Walter's right, I did say that a lot of grafting occurs because that's what most tree propagation nurseries do: graft. I said that in regard to Acer palmatum cultivars. It's abundantly clear that most of these cultivars will grow almost, or just as good on their own roots. I have observed dozens of these cultivars over the years on their own roots and I see little difference, except for a few weirdos like 'Shishigashiri', which definitely shows a more dwarfing tendency on its own roots, growing at a small fraction of the rate of grafted trees. I don't know if it's still true, but I have read (Dirr) that Holland perfected the cutting propagation of 'Bloodgood' scores of years ago now, and sold them by the tens of thousands in Europe. In the US, I only know of one nursery that specialized in cutting grown A. p. cvs, and that was Wright's Nursery in Oregon, and it went out of business (I cried) about a dozen years ago. They grew about 30 or so cvs from cuttings and they were CHEAPER than grafted trees. A bonsai dream. I had hoped to do a similar thing on a smaller scale, but alas it turned out the microclimate at the new nursery was not conducive. I may still do some more on a hobby scale as I wind down things, but they certainly won't be cheaper than grafts. Even after all the disasters with the weather here, I still have hoarded a number of my early cuttings from as far back as '96, mostly dwarfs.

Vance is correct about the seedling strains. I wasn't aware of the one about Pinus parviflora var azuma, good tip, thanks. I also have one of these grafts and plan to propagate it, perhaps this fall. It will be odd to propagate a seedling strain by grafting, but it does happen, especially to rare species. I often see Cedrus brevifolia grafted (non cvs). Another interesting blooper is A. palmatum 'Viridis' (sic), which should properly be A. palmatum var viridis since this was originally just green dissectum maples. God only knows how many phenotypes are out there labeled 'Viridis'. I also have my doubts about 'Sango Kaku'.

A case can be made for stronger trees when grafting P. parviflora cvs on P. strobus or P. thunbergii since these are tougher root stocks in general and not nearly as disease prone as P. parviflora roots. On the other hand P. thunbergii is not as cold hardy, so it would be a bad choice for zone 4 and colder, but P. stobus would be ok. In any case, the grafts should be as low as possible, which this one is not. I have had limited success in scarring the bark of P. parviflora just above the graft to help swell it and match the understock, but it is far better to start out right with quality starter plants. P. parviflora also roots quite easily (for a pine) and ground layering is always a possibility. I have grown roots on the scion portion this way, but infortunately lost track of the tree.

Brent
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see our blog at http://BonsaiNurseryman.typepad.com
 

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